Correctly Understanding John 17:3

Posted on November 3, 2022 by Jerry

The Nugget:

Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (KJV)

Joh 17:3 Now eternal life means knowing you as the only true God and knowing Jesus your messenger as Christ. (Williams NT)

Joh 17:3 Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent. (CEV, Contemporary English Version)

My Comment:

I have spent a good portion of last month spending quality time studying John 17:3. This is a most important verse. It is often used by false cults and religions to support the anti-Trinitarian views of Unitarianism, Islam, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and others. In my studies of this text I carefully surveyed over 1,300 scholarly works in my Logos library as well as print volumes I have in my personal library that are not in Logos. Out of all these resources I found about three that carefully explain this text. I read these three extra carefully more than once but did not use them in my discussion below.

To understand this verse more deeply, I simply went directly to the text and carefully considered its immediate, its near, its related, and its distant context. I have carefully taken into account the nuances of the underlying Greek text by expressing them in plain English.

If you read my discussions below with care, you will be equipped, as never before, to explain, discuss, and defend the correct interpretation of this passage in context.

This is a very long post (13 pages, 4561 words), but if you read to learn, I believe you will see how to do apologetics effectively and you will learn how to follow the Rules of Interpretation I have championed here as given in the October, 2010 Archives listed on the right-hand side of the page.

10-24-22 Correctly Understanding John 17v3

The Muslim Claim:

Christians say that Jesus came to give eternal life, so what is the eternal life he is coming to give !??

Let’s see from Jesus’s own words

John 5:24

Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

In both verses Jesus is declaring with no doubt and with no parables nor symbolic words that the eternal life is to believe in the almighty God in heaven who have sent Jesus

Jesus’s mission was only to tell the Jew to recognize the almighty God as the only true God and recognize himself (Jesus) as God’s messenger

This is the eternal life that we Muslims accepted while Christians did not

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My Response:

Jesus was sent on behalf of the whole world, not just the Jews. John 3:16 would tell you that. “For God so loved the world,” one of the best known verses in the Bible.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This declaration is not a message limited to the Jews but a message that declares God’s love for mankind as a whole, as reflected by what is stated in Titus 3:4.

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Muslim Reply:

Jesus with his own tongue said he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel

Who in the world are you Mr big lie to believe you and call Jesus liar !!!!!!

My Response:

It is obvious from your comment that you have not carefully read or studied enough of the message of the New Testament to properly understand it. You cannot base a belief by cherry-picking one statement in the New Testament taken out of context and in total disregard of what the rest of the New Testament and the Bible as a whole teaches about the issue you have raised.

Muslim Reply:

See

It is obvious you are idiot and ignorant

Are you happy now !?

How dare you to judge or decide if I read or understand!?

Because I don’t have the fake nonsense conclusions you made about the Bible so you consider me don’t understand!??

Who told you are underestimating it correctly !? Who gave you the authority to judge me idiot !???

Hey Mr

I am not cherry picking

Explain those verse I shared

Explain John 17:3

1- The speaker : Jesus

2- To whom he speaks ! God almighty you call him father

3- The declaration made in the sentence : God almighty is the only true God and Jesus the speaker is his messenger

What cherry picking !? Cherry picking your @ss

My Reply:

And just what does John 17:3 have to do with supporting your initial assertion that Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Let me offer some help to your proper understanding of this verse. Here are my notes as given in my Bible study resource titled The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury:

but unto. or, except to. Gr. ei mē. Jesus did not always limit or restrict his ministry to none but the Jews. He also ministered to Gentiles as here. He healed the centurion’s servant (Mat 8:13); He declared his Messiahship to the Samaritan woman at the well (Joh 4:25, 26), and as a result of her vibrant testimony Jesus was asked by the townspeople of the Samaritan city of Sychar to stay two more days with them, which he did, and many of them believed (Joh 4:42). When Jesus healed the ten lepers, one of them was a Samaritan, the only one who returned to give thanks (Luk 17:11, 12; Luk 17:15, 16). Christ’s directive (Mat 10:5, 6) that his disciples minister only to the lost sheep of Israel and not enter into any city of the Samaritans nor go in the way of the Gentiles was clearly a directive for that immediate mission, and does not mark a permanent policy of the ministry of Christ that limited His work only to the Jews. It is most clear that Christ came to save the world, not merely the lost sheep of the house of Israel, for He commanded that His Gospel be proclaimed to every creature (Mat 28:19; Mar 16:15; Luk 24:27; Joh 1:29; Joh 3:16; Joh 4:42; Act 1:8; 1Jn 2:2). This accords precisely with what was prophesied of the Messiah (Isa 49:6; Act 13:47; Act 26:23).

 

Muslim Response:

Second of all

How dare you fabricate the Bible and say Jesus is begotten son

All modern translations through this word away as fabrication

Begotten mean sexual reproduction

Did you God sleep with Mary

My Response:

Your objection is nonsense. Once again you are demonstrating your lack of knowledge about what the terms in the text of the New Testament mean.

Let me help you reach a clearer understanding of John 3:16 by sharing with you from my Bible study resource, The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury, with special reference to the term “begotten”:

begotten. Gr. monogenes, S# G3439, +Luk 7:12, lit. the only one of a family, unique of its kind. Monogenes, applied to Jesus, expresses the unique and eternal relationship of the Son to the Father. As firstborn does not mean born first (Col 1:15 note), neither does only begotten imply a begetting, birth, or origin in time. In His pre-existence, Jesus was always uniquely the Son of God (Psa 2:7, +*Isa 9:6, Heb 1:8). When used of Christ, only begotten speaks of “unoriginated relationship.” Only begotten “indicates that as the Son of God He was the sole representative of the Being and character of the One who sent Him” (Vine, Expository Dictionary, vol. 3, p. 140). It is a word picture which portrays the relationship of the Father to the Son in the terms of a Middle Eastern patriarchal family (**Gen 21:12; Gen 22:2; Gen 22:12; Gen 22:16, Heb 11:17). Isaac, termed Abraham’s only begotten son (Heb 11:17), though Abraham had a prior son Ishmael by Hagar (Gen 16:15) and later sons by Keturah (Gen 25:1, 2, 3, 4, 1Ch 1:32, 33), sustains a unique relationship to Abraham as the son of promise (Gal 4:23). The same picture, portrayed in parable (Mat 21:37), emphasizes the unique authority of Jesus as sent by the Father (Joh 20:21, 1Jn 4:9), and our responsibility to receive the truth declared by Him (Joh 1:14; Joh 1:18; Joh 3:18, Mat 17:5). Pro 8:24, Col 1:15, Heb 1:6; Heb 11:17, %1Jn 5:18.

Muslim Response:

Helllooooo

I am discussing John 17:3

Why you are running  away like c-ward when it comes to explain John 17:3 !??

Why you are going to demonstrate your stupidity and disrespectfulness by leaving the main topic John 17:3 and going to other verses

FYI, all new translations through away the word begotten as it is fabrication and manipulation

I won’t be distracted as you want and leave the main topic John 17:3

Answer the questions, in John 17:3

Who is speaking !!

To whom he is speaking !?

What is the topic he is speaking about !?

My Reply:

You have brought up a very interesting and important verse!

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (KJV)

Joh 17:3 Now eternal life means knowing you as the only true God and knowing Jesus your messenger as Christ. (Williams NT)

You ask:

(1) Who is speaking?

My answer: Our Lord Jesus Christ

(2) To whom is he speaking?

My answer: God the Father, as determined by the near context of John 17:1.

Joh 17:1 When Jesus had said all these things, He lifted His eyes to heaven and said: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that He may glorify you,

(3) What is the topic he is speaking about?

My answer: As determined by the immediate context, Jesus is speaking about the fact that the Father has given him authority over all mankind to give eternal life to all the Father has given him:

Joh 17:2 just as you have given Him authority over all mankind to give eternal life to all whom you have given Him.

Joh 17:3 Now eternal life means knowing you as the only true God and knowing Jesus your messenger as Christ.

The emphasis is upon the fact that we must continue to know both the Father and the Son in a personal way by having a continuing and growing or developing personal relationship with them both.

Muslim Response:

You lied

3- what is the topic

You answered about giving authority and blah balh which is not mentioned in the verse

The verse is so clear, Jesus spoke to God the father in heaven admitting that the eternal life is to recognize him God the father as the only true God and to recognize Jesus as his messenger

Why you lie !!!!!!!!

My Reply:

You seem to be very clever at using ad hominem attacks but you surely have not responded to what I have clearly written in direct answer to your question.

To properly understand John 17:3 you must take into account the immediate context which is John 17:2.

I cited John 17:2 for you:

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. (KJV)

Joh 17:2 just as you have given Him authority over all mankind to give eternal life to all whom you have given Him. (Williams NT)

You questioned “about giving authority” “which is not mentioned in the verse.” If you had read my answer to you more carefully you would have noticed that “authority” is directly mentioned in John 17:2.

Very clearly, to understand John 17:3 you must take into account the context where it occurs. As a careful interpreter I did just that by quoting John 17:2.

For those who know how to read, the emphasis in John 17:3 is continuing and growing in our knowledge and personal relationship with both the Father and the Son in order to have eternal life.

Muslim Reply:

I am not discussing 17:2

I asked clear question and you Jew running away from the answer like c-ward

What was Jesus telling the father in Johan 17:3

Give a direct answer

My Response:

It would help if you would learn how to read and understand what I have carefully written.

Jesus was not “telling the Father” anything like what you suppose. Jesus was affirming the authority that God the Father had exclusively given him, and in this prayer Jesus was praying that the Father would glorify His Son, that He, His Son, may glorify the Father:

Joh 17:1 When Jesus had said all these things, He lifted His eyes to heaven and said: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that He may glorify you,

It is you who asked “about giving authority”! I politely answered your question by referring you to the immediate context of John 17:3 by citing John 17:2.

Joh 17:2 just as you have given Him authority over all mankind to give eternal life to all whom you have given Him.

You cannot correctly understand what is stated in John 17:3 if you ignore the context.

If that is how you go about interpreting the Bible, then you could justify citing any number of verses or parts of verses together with some rather remarkable results:

The Bible says, “Judas went and hanged himself.” Matthew 27:5

Jesus said, “Go and do thou likewise.” Luke 10:37

Jesus said, “And what thou doest, do quickly.” John 13:27

This illustrates in a memorable way the principle that you must obey the Rules of Interpretation to arrive at a correct interpretation of any Bible verse or subject. The rule of interpretation in this case is to always consider any verse in the light of its context.

Joh 17:3 Now eternal life means knowing you as the only true God and knowing Jesus your messenger as Christ.

Jesus is telling us that in order to receive the eternal life that only He has been authorized to give to mankind, you must continue your whole life to know in a personal way by means of having and maintaining a growing personal relationship with both God the Father and His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the message and the focus of John 17:3. If you choose to disregard this message, you will end up where you most certainly would not wish to go.

Muslim Response:

Nothing in 17:1 nor 2 says what you conclude falsely

Why you are running from explaining 17:3 and resort to 17:1 and 2

John 17:1

When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You.

He is asking God the Father to glorify him (as a reward for fulfilling his mission) because Jesus glorified God on earth and he praised his name among his people

What in this will make Jesus equal to God??

I am glorifying God on earth and every believer Glorifies God too, so what ?????

John 17:2

For You granted Him authority over all people so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.

Every prophet had authority from God over his people, so what ???

Jesus got authority from God, so God is the source of authority the giver and Jesus is the receiver of authority from God because he is weak with no authority to fulfill a specified mission which is giving people eternal life.

So Jesus we may ask you what is the eternal life that you got authority from God to give to your people ? Jesus answered in John 17:3

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

the eternal life that Jesus god the authority from God to give his people is to believe in the only true God the Father (with no partners), and to believe in Jesus his messenger who got the authority from God.

So what hallucinations you are making ??????

The verses is so simple and so direct and you are just twisting them to force your false belief coming from pastors in your church.

My Response:

None of the former prophets ever asked God the Father to glorify them but Jesus did:

Joh 17:1 When Jesus had said all these things, He lifted His eyes to heaven and said: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that He may glorify you,

None of the prophets make the stupendous claim that Jesus makes when Jesus said in His prayer:

Joh 17:5 So now, Father, glorify me up there in your presence just as you did before the world existed.

None of the prophets were given authority over all mankind to give them eternal life but Jesus alone has been given this authority:

Joh 17:2 just as you have given Him authority over all mankind to give eternal life to all whom you have given Him.

Jesus spoke of this authority earlier during His earthly ministry:

Matthew 11:27

27 “My Father has given me all things. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Good News Bible

Jesus defines just what is eternal life and how to receive it when he declares:

Joh 17:3 Now eternal life means knowing you as the only true God and knowing Jesus your messenger as Christ.

So the question we all individually must answer is, do we know the Lord Jesus Christ in a personal way and are we continuing to grow in our knowledge and fellowship with Him and His Father who is the only true God?

The grammar and logic of John 17:3 forbid the notion that Jesus is denying His own Deity to affirm that His Father is the only true God, as you very mistakenly assume and assert.

Your presumed understanding of John 17:3 fails to explain the meaning of this text in the light of the flow of thought in its immediate context. Simply put, you have misunderstood this text by taking it out of context, a very flagrant error in that you have violated the most important rule of interpretation–not to take a text out of context, and falsely arrived at a meaning it does not possess.

Muslim Response:

You will just argue with baseless conclusions using other verses while you deny the simple clear words Jesus said

Because you don’t believe in him as he said but as your pastors taught you how to twist the verses to prove their false doctrine

My Reply:

If you carefully read what I have shared with you about how to correctly understand John 17:3 you may learn some things about how to properly interpret the Bible that you did not know before.

And no, I am not repeating what my pastors taught me about this verse or the Bible. For the most part, thousands of pastors around the world are learning from me how to better understand and interpret the Bible.

I have not been arguing using baseless conclusions. You and many who may believe as you do are the ones failing to obey the Rules of Interpretation and so as a result are misunderstanding what the Bible teaches, and specifically, what Jesus meant when He said what He did in John 17:3.

I hope you will carefully rethink how you are misrepresenting what Jesus said when you take His words out of context and think you understand them correctly.

So the question we all individually must answer is, do we know and have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ in a personal way and are we continuing to grow in our knowledge and fellowship with Him and His Father who is the only true God?

The grammar and logic of John 17:3 forbid the notion that Jesus is denying His own Deity to affirm that His Father is the only true God, as you very mistakenly assume and assert.

Thank you for continuing this discussion.

Muslim Reply:

Yes you are

1- repeating what pastors taught

2- arguing with baseless conclusions

3- don’t need to read carefully for your twisted conclusions why !?

Because Jesus explained and declared the meaning in clear specific wordings that need no baseless twisted maniac conclusions you have been taught to desperately prove that Jesus is partner with God in a desperate trial to prove your polytheism

My Response:

You state that I am:

1. repeating what pastors taught

If I am, I did not get my understanding of John 17 from them. I have never heard a pastor teach or preach about John 17, and especially John 17:3, with the depth and precision that I have shared about this verse for you.

But if it were actually true that there are pastors teaching what I have explained about John 17:3, I am glad to learn there are others who understand how to interpret the Bible accurately and share what they find.

2. arguing with baseless conclusions

I would appreciate you being more specific about how I have mistakenly arrived at baseless conclusions. To do so, you would need to cite my argument and specify the logical or doctrinal flaw you identified. You would need to show that I have misread the context. You will note carefully that your interpretation violates the rule of immediate, near, and remote or total Bible context, whereas my interpretation does not do so.

3. presenting twisted conclusions that you do not need to read carefully

When it comes to Scripture Twisting, your misunderstanding and misuse of John 17:3 is an example of one of the most notable to be found anywhere.

You and those who may mistakenly agree with you are guilty of false accusation when you claim “you have been taught to desperately prove that Jesus is partner with God in a desperate trial to prove your polytheism.”

The very terminology you use to express this reeks with Muslim falsehood in an attempt to misrepresent what the Bible explicitly teaches in the very context of John 17:3, and you know it.

Here is the text in question:

Joh 17:1 When Jesus had said all these things, He lifted His eyes to heaven and said: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that He may glorify you,

Note that in His prayer Jesus directly claims to be God’s Son, a truth you deny.

Joh 17:2 just as you have given Him authority over all mankind to give eternal life to all whom you have given Him.

Note that Jesus acknowledges that God has given him exclusive authority over all mankind to give eternal life to those God has given him.

Joh 17:3 Now eternal life means knowing you as the only true God and knowing Jesus your messenger as Christ.

Those God has given Jesus, to whom Jesus gives eternal life, are those who “are knowing you as the only true God,” the English word “knowing” representing the tense of the underlying Greek word which signifies to continue to know in a deeper way as a result of continuing fellowship and personal relationship to God through knowing our Lord Jesus Christ as the unique and only Son of God sent to us as God’s Messiah or Christ.

Notice Jesus did not say “knowing you as the only true Father,” but “as the only true God.” The reference to “only true God” specifies God in contrast to all other false gods and idols, as is John’s usage in the remote context found in 1 John 5:20, 21,

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us insight to recognize the True One; and we are in union with the True One through His Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
1Jn 5:21 Dear children, once for all put yourselves beyond the reach of idols.

Joh 17:4 I have glorified you down here upon the earth by completing the work which you have given me to do.

Jesus asserts that he has glorified God here on earth by completing the work God gave him to do.

Joh 17:5 So now, Father, glorify me up there in your presence just as you did before the world existed.

Jesus has always existed with God from before the creation of the world, and prays that the glory he had then in God’s presence would continue as it did then.

Muslim Response (10-24-22):

John 17:1

He is praying to his God to glorify him as he glorified God by calling people to believe in Gid

17:2

He is admitting that the authority have been given to him by God the giver the almighty and he Jesus is just weak person receiver

17:3

The eternal life is to believe in the only true God the father in heaven and believe in his messenger Jesus

17:4

Jesus confess and admit he finalized his duty which calling people to believe in God, No crucifix not killing or ransom or this pagan belief

 

My Response (10-25-22):

Zeyad Ahmed Thank you for sharing your understanding of John 17:3 and its immediate context.

THE TEXT (John 17:1):

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Your Explanation:

He is praying to his God to glorify him as he glorified God by calling people to believe in God

My Questions for You:

1. What is “the hour” that has come?

2. Jesus prayed that He might be glorified. To what does this clearly future glorification refer?

3. How will Jesus the Son glorify God his Father?

THE TEXT (John 17:2):

Joh 17:2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Your Explanation:

He is admitting that the authority have been given to him by God the giver the almighty and he Jesus is just weak person receiver

My Questions for You:

1. What authority or power has Jesus been given by the Father?

2. Over whom or what has Jesus been given this power or authority?

3. On what basis do you claim “Jesus is just a weak person receiver”?

THE TEXT (John 17:3):

Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Your Explanation:

The eternal life is to believe in the only true God the father in heaven and believe in his messenger Jesus

My Questions for You:

1. Where do you get “believe” when the text says “know”?

2. What does this verse say we must do to have eternal life?

3. Why does Jesus specifically state we must know “the only true God” instead of saying “the only true God the Father”?

THE TEXT (John 17:4):

Joh 17:4  I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Your Explanation:

Jesus confess and admit he finalized his duty which calling people to believe in God, No crucifix not killing or ransom or this pagan belief

My Questions for You:

1. Did Jesus only call people to believe in God when the text states “know thee the only true God AND know Jesus Christ whom thou [God] has sent”?

2. What, according to Jesus, was the work God gave him to do?

3. Jesus stated God has given him authority “over all flesh” or people (John 17:2), so on what basis do you in your Opening Post limit this authority exclusively to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”?

THE TEXT (John 17:5):

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Your Explanation:

You did not address this important text which is a vital part of the context of John 17:3. I invite your explanation of this verse.

My Questions for You:

1. In this part of the prayer of Jesus, what does Jesus ask the Father to do?

2. How could Jesus claim to have had glory with God the Father “before the world was”?

3. What relationship to the Father did Jesus have in the time frame referred to by the expression “before the world was”?

Thank you for sharing your insights about these eternally important matters. Thank you for continuing this peaceful discussion. I already have been learning more about what the Bible teaches in response to your comments, questions, and challenges.

 

LINK:

(12) Christianity and Islam Friendly Debate | Christians say that Jesus came to give eternal life, so what is the eternal life he is coming to give | Facebook

 

 

 

Posted in Apologetics Issues--Other Faiths, Bible Study Tools, Doctrinal Discussions, False Religions, How to Interpret the Bible Correctly, How to Study the Bible | Tagged , , | Leave a comment

Daily Bible Nugget #709, Romans 8:1

Posted on November 1, 2022 by Jerry

The Nugget:

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

My Comment:

I am sharing below a Facebook post by Ken Sagely I read today, who has been far more prolific in his postings day by day than I have been!

11-1-22 Ken Sagely

Lord’s Day

Romans 5.1 Therefore being Justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

All Praise to Him Who Reigns Above in Majesty Supreme,
Who gave His Son to die, That He might redeem!

Blessed be the name, Blessed be the name,
Blessed be the name of the Lord.
Blessed be the name, Blessed be the name,
Blessed be the name of the Lord.

1Corinthians 1.30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.

Philippians 1.6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 2.9-10 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And you are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power.

Hebrews 7.25 Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.

1John 3.2 Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear. we shall be like Him: for we shall see Him as He is.

Psalm 56.13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt thou not deliver my feet from falling that I may walk before God in the land of the living?

John 10.28 And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

His name above all names shall stand, Exalted more and more,
At God the Father’s own right hand, Where angel hosts adore,

Blessed be the name, blessed be the name, Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Revelation 7.12 Saying, Amen, Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might be unto our God forever and ever.

 

Posted in Bible Promises, Daily Bible Nuggets, Ken Sagely contributions | Tagged | 1 Comment

Atheist Claims About Bible Interpretation Refuted

Posted on October 27, 2022 by Jerry

The Atheist Challenge:

“I understand a man of your caliber have trouble with honesty & simple basic truth. Just plead the fifth.”

The moment that you say that the Bible needs to be “interpreted” you have already lost the debate. Is there an ultimate authority here on earth telling you how to interpret the Bible? No.

This means that what the Bible says depends on the whims of the person interpreting the Bible.

My Response (10-22-22, “5 days ago on 10-27-22):

There are well-known Rules of Interpretation that are very helpful as guides to reaching or confirming what is a correct interpretation.

The “whims of the person interpreting the Bible” is not the basis for determining what the Bible says or means.

You probably cannot read any written text without in some sense interpreting what you have read should it be that you suppose you understand it.

When two interpretations differ, it is possible to determine whether one is right and another wrong, or they both are wrong, but if the two interpretations are contradictory, they cannot both be right.

 

Atheist Reply (10-24-22):

Jerome Smith there is no logic , when speaking about Religious cults. To believe in this type of utter lunacy you have no reasoning , and lack the mental capacity to understand magical characters with magical powers never have existed in our reality. Ft or example this picture lmao .You believe these things are real and that is a lie

My Reply (4 days ago on 10-27-22, or 10-23-22):

It is clear that your mind is made up already and not open to reason, logic, and evidence or open to learning anything new about the Bible.

So much for your implied claim of superior knowledge of the Bible manifest or implied by your posting on a site named “Christians do you REALLY know your Bible.”

Of course, if you have such a closed mind, you can hardly claim to really know your Bible!

To suppose that the Bible is composed merely of iron age superstitions, ideologies, and mythology reveals the height of your ignorance about the Bible.

 

Atheist Reply (10-22-22, 5d ago on 10-27-22):

If you have to interpret the Bible , that means each person can perceive any understand there gullible mind manifest, why does the alleged word of God need to be interpreted .If is all true ? You truly sound ridiculous & not well .

My Reply (5d ago on 10-27-22, thus 10-22-22):

Apparently you did not read with care and understanding what I wrote below:

“You probably cannot read any written text without in some sense interpreting what you have read should it be that you suppose you understand it.

“When two interpretations differ, it is possible to determine whether one is right and another wrong, or they both are wrong, but if the two interpretations are contradictory, they cannot both be right.”

Am I to suppose from your responses to my comments that you do not know how to properly interpret what you have read?

It may be that each person who reads the Bible sometimes comes to an interpretation of it that differs from what the text actually says.

If the person is sincerely reading the text with the intent of understanding it correctly, further actual study and re-reading of the text will lead them to a more accurate understanding.

The Bible is a self-explanatory Book, and a self-correcting Book such that sincere and careful readers will discover that if they misunderstand what the Bible says in one place, the misunderstanding will be corrected when that misunderstanding contradicts what the Bible teaches more clearly for the reader in another place in its text.

Atheist Reply (4d ago on 10-27-22, thus 10-23-22):

Being black& knowing my cultures history ,It’s greatness , before Europeans found civilization, Your cult is white supremacy existed and has no relevance to us Educated, conscious Nubian people. We not suffering from post traumatic slave syndrome. Your rhetoric , is plantation programming. Wrong Black Man

My Response (3d ago on 10-27-22, thus 10-24-22):

All you are doing by posting such memes as you have above is further demonstrating your lack of knowledge about the Bible.

You have drifted far astray of your Opening Post, which shows you are unable to defend or rationally discuss the issue of your OP, or demonstrate any knowledge of what is involved in Bible interpretation.

Atheist Reply (3d ago on 10—27-22, thus 10-24-22)

You sound ignorant.

You sound stupid , if gods word is perfect , you take it as is because what your saying is the word isn’t perfect if it has to be interpreted & each will interpret it according to there own understanding , what you saying Jerome smith is ridiculous

Your cult means nothing & is a lie made up. History has proven that

My Response (10-27-22):

Apparently you have never read or better, studied with care, any of the works of K. Kitchen, such as The Reliability of the Old Testament. So much for any claim you might make that history has proven the Bible to be a lie.

Before making such wild and meaningless claims you would be helped by learning more about the subject first.

 

Atheist Response to me (3d ago on 10-27-22, thus 10-24-22):

[In a meme:] “If you can’t take faith to court as evidence of something is true/then what makes you think having faith in something makes it real? Can you tell the judge you have faith that a person is the murderer because God  told you so?”

My Reply (10-27-22):

And who makes the claim of taking “faith” to court as “evidence”?

Once again you demonstrate your lack of knowledge about the Bible and the evidence that supports its truth and validity.

You would be greatly helped if you read with care the book by Simon Greenleaf, The Testimony of the Evangelists. You surely would learn a thing or two from Greenleaf on the subject of evidence.

More recently, Mark Lanier, another legal expert, has written a book titled Christianity on Trial and another book titled Atheism on Trial.

Yet another pertinent title written by Eric Metaxas, Is Atheism Dead? contains enough evidence to show you are very mistaken about these matters.

Atheist Response (from 3d ago as of 10-27-22, thus 10-24-22):

Jerome all messed up lies lol

My response (10-27-22):

It is clear that you have little to no knowledge about the subject of Bible interpretation.

Many years ago the first Christian book that I bought about the Bible was a book by Milton S. Terry, titled Biblical Hermeneutics.

I studied it carefully. I read it through three times while I was still in high school where I was enrolled in the Electrical Curriculum, studying to become an electrician. I subsequently went to work for Michigan Bell Telephone Company as a generator room operator.

The book is about 700 pages long and very informative.

That is where I started in my careful study of this subject.

I continue to study this subject. So it might be that I know more about interpreting the Bible than you do.

Atheist Response (3d ago on 10-27-22, thus 10-24-22):

Jerome smith your dense & incapable of under standing reality and your post reflect how twisted , sick and uneducated you are.I will nolonger engage you either , This Black MAN dosent deal with republican , evangelical , racist & bigots & elec deniers , or trump supporters . Ill post but ignore you & you brainwashed bullshit.

My Response (10-27-22):

I see you have given up on discussing the subject of Bible interpretation. Thank you for your interaction on and mostly off this subject. I don’t ignore anyone myself, but always welcome further interaction and discussion based on solid scholarship and careful reasoning.

So much for your support of the implied claim beneath this site’s title, “Christians do you REALLY know your Bible.”

Posted in Apologetics Issues--Atheism, Bible Historicity and Validity, How to Interpret the Bible Correctly | Tagged , | Leave a comment

Daily Bible Nugget #708, Psalm 37:5

Posted on October 15, 2022 by Jerry

The Nugget:

Psa 37:5  Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. (KJV)

Psa 37:5 Roll on Jehovah thy way, And trust upon Him, and He worketh, (Young’s Literal Translation)

Psa 37:5  Give yourself to the LORD; trust in him, and he will help you; (GNB, Good News Bible)

Psa 37:5  Disclose thy way to the Lord, and hope in him; and he shall bring it to pass. (LXX, Brenton translation)

Psa 37:5 Put your life in the hands of the Lord; have faith in him and he will do it. (BBE, Bible in Basic English)

Psa 37:5  Entrust your ways to the LORD. Trust him, and he will act on your behalf. (GW, God’s Word translation)

Psa 37:5 Commit your future to the LORD!
Trust in him, and he will act on your behalf. (NET Bible)

Psa 37:5 Let the LORD lead you and trust him to help. (CEV, Contemporary English Version)

My Comment:

If you read more than one English translation of the Bible for a given passage you will understand more of what the verse or passage means.

Notice that this verse is echoed in the New Testament at 1 Peter 5:7.

Studying the cross references for Psalm 37:5 as well as the cross references for 1 Peter 5:7 ought to bring you increased faith and encouragement in your spiritual life.

Cross References for Psalm 37:5 from The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury:

Psalms 37:5

Commit. Heb. Roll thy way upon. T1428. Psa 10:14; Psa 22:8 mg. *Psa 55:22, Jos 10:18, 1Sa 14:33, 2Ch 14:11; 2Ch 20:12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, Job 5:8, Pro 3:6; *Pro 16:3 mg. *Mat 6:25, Luk 12:22; Luk 12:29; *Luk 12:30, *Php 4:6; Php 4:7, 1Pe 2:23; 1Pe 4:19; **1Pe 5:7.

thy way. Psa 37:7; Psa 37:14 mg, **Psa 37:23; *Psa 37:34, Psa 1:1; Psa 1:6; Psa 2:12, Gen 24:12, 13; Gen 24:42.

trust. Psa 37:3, Job 35:14, **Pro 3:5, Isa 25:9.

and. *Psa 22:31; +*Psa 119:126, Job 22:28, Ecc 9:1, *Lam 3:37, *Jas 4:15.

bring. FS108B24, Idiom F/S 828. The Hebrew idiom “to do” is used for to bring to pass, do a very great deal, do all. For another instance of this idiom see Dan 9:19. Gen 43:14, Jos 21:45; Jos 23:14, Rth 2:11.

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Daily Bible Nugget #707, Psalm 37:4

Posted on October 11, 2022 by Jerry

The Nugget:

Psa 37:4  Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. (KJV)

Psa 37:4 And delight thyself on Jehovah, And He giveth to thee the petitions of thy heart. (YLT, Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible)

Psa 37:4  Take pleasure in Yahweh as well, and he will give to you the requests of your heart. (LEB, Lexham English Bible)

Psa 37:4 Yea, rest thy delight on Yahweh, that he may give thee the requests of thy heart. (EB, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible)

Psa 37:4 Then you will take delight in the LORD,
and he will answer your prayers. (NET Bible)

My Comment:

Psalm 37:4 is instructive. It is another cause/effect relationship verse that is not on any of my published lists of such verses in the New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge or Nelson’s Cross Reference Guide to the Bible or The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury.

The CAUSE portion of Psalm 37:4 is “Delight thyself also in the LORD.”

The EFFECT portion of Psalm 37:4 is “and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.”

Reading the other English Bible translations I have shared above further clarifies the EFFECT portion of Psalm 37:4 with their renderings:

  • that he may give thee the requests of thy heart. (EB, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible)
  • And He giveth to thee the petitions of thy heart. (YLT, Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible)
  • and he will answer your prayers. (NET Bible)

The first part of  Psalm 37:4, the CAUSE portion of this verse, is clarified by comparing Scripture with Scripture using cross references shared below. It is important to study and understand these to know what to do to experience the benefit expressed in the EFFECT clause of this verse.

I have given an extensive list of CAUSE/EFFECT RELATIONSHIP verses at Psalm 9:10 in the NTSK, NCRGB, and the UCRT.

At Psalm 9:10 I also explain another simple but helpful Bible study method that involves noticing what any verse says about “my responsibility” and what it says about “God’s responsibility.” This method applies nicely to Psalm 37:4.

The first clause of Psalm 37:4, “Delight thyself also in the LORD,” represents MY RESPONSIBILITY.

The last clause of Psalm 37:4, “and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart,” represents GOD’S RESPONSIBILITY.

Here are the cross references for the first clause of Psalm 37:4 that I have collected and presented in The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury:

Psalms 37:4
Delight. T1323. Psa 37:11, +*Psa 1:2; Psa 4:7; Psa 16:5, 6; Psa 40:8; *Psa 43:4; Psa 73:25; *Psa 104:34; Psa 119:16; Psa 119:24; Psa 119:35; Psa 119:47; Psa 119:70; Psa 119:77; Psa 119:174, Job 22:26; Job 27:10; Job 34:9, Pro 16:3, Song 2:3, Isa 55:2; Isa 58:2; *Isa 58:14; Isa 64:5; Isa 66:11, Php 3:1; *Php 4:6; Php 4:7, *1Pe 1:8.

 

 

Posted in Bible Promises, Bible Study Tools, Christian Living, Daily Bible Nuggets, How to Study the Bible, Practical Application Bible Studies, Principles of Christian Living | Tagged , , | 1 Comment

Daily Bible Nugget #706, Psalm 37:3

Posted on October 8, 2022 by Jerry

The Nugget:

Psa 37:3  Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. (KJV)

Psa 37:3 Trust in Jehovah, and do good, Dwell in the land, and enjoy faithfulness, (Young’s Literal Translation)

Psa 37:3 Trust in Jehovah and do good; live in the land and feed on faithfulness. (LITV, Literal Translation of the Holy Bible)

Psa 37:3  Hope in the Lord, and do good; and dwell on the land, and thou shalt be fed with the wealth of it. (LXX, Brenton translation)

Psa 37:3 Trust in the Lord, and do good, and dwell in the land, and thou shalt be fed with its riches. (DRB, Douay-Rheims Bible)

Psa 37:3 Trust in the LORD and do what is right!
Settle in the land and maintain your integrity! (NET Bible)

Psa 37:3  Trust the LORD, and do good things. Live in the land, and practice being faithful. (GW, God’s Word translation)

Psa 37:3 Trust the LORD and live right! The land will be yours, and you will be safe. (CEV, Contemporary English Version)

My Comment:

Reading a verse or passage of the Bible from several translations will often bring out meanings that you would otherwise miss. This is often a good first step to carefully study and meditate on God’s Word.

A second helpful step to study a verse is to look up the cross references given for that verse. Here are the cross references for Psalm 37:3 as given in the following three sources keyed to the King James Version:

The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge:

Psalms 37:3

Trust: Psa 4:5, Psa 26:1; Isa 1:16, 17, 18, 19, Isa 50:10; Jer 17:7, 8; 1Co 15:57, 58; Heb 6:10, 11, 12

so shalt: Gen 26:2; 1Sa 26:19; Heb 11:13, 14, 15, 16

verily: Heb. in truth, or stableness

be fed: Psa 33:19, Psa 34:9, 10; Mat 6:31, 32, 33; Luk 22:35

The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge:

Psalms 37:3

Trust. Psa 4:5; Psa 26:1; Isa 1:16-19; Isa 50:10; Jer 17:7; Jer 17:8; ✓1Co 15:57; 1Co 15:58; Heb 6:10-12

so shalt. Gen 26:2; 1Sa 26:19; Heb 11:13-16

dwell. Psa 37:27; Psa 37:29; *2Sa 7:10

land. Deut 30:20

verily. Heb. in truth, or; stableness. Psa 33:4; Psa 36:5; Isa 33:6

be fed. T753. Psa 33:19; Psa 34:9; Psa 34:10; Psa 111:5; Psa 132:15; Psa 147:14; Pro 13:25; Isa 33:16; Isa 65:13; Joe 2:26; *Mat 6:31-33; +Luk 6:38; Luk 22:35; *Php 4:19

The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury:

Psalms 37:3

Trust. Psa 37:5, Psa 4:5; +**Psa 9:10 note. Psa 16:1; Psa 25:2; Psa 26:1; Psa 62:8; Psa 115:9, 10, 11, *Pro 3:5; *Pro 3:6, *Isa 1:16, 17, 18, 19; Isa 26:4; Isa 50:10, Jer 17:7, 8.

do good. Psa 37:27, Psa 34:14, Isa 1:16, 17, 18, 19, +*Mic 6:8, **1Co 15:57; **1Co 15:58, *Heb 6:10, 11, 12.

so shalt. Gen 26:2, 1Sa 26:19, Heb 11:13, 14, 15, 16.

dwell. Psa 37:27; Psa 37:29, Gen 26:2, +*Lev 26:5, **2Sa 7:10, Pro 2:21, Jer 48:28.

land. i.e. Canaan: the visible pledge of God’s covenant faithfulness;—the enduring witness of the destruction of the ungodly (Kay). Psa 37:27; Psa 37:29, Gen 26:2, 3, Deut 30:20, +**2Sa 7:10 note.

verily. Heb. in truth, or, stableness. Psa 33:4; Psa 36:5, Isa 33:6.

be fed. T753. Psa 37:19; Psa 37:25, Psa 33:19; Psa 34:9, 10; Psa 84:11; Psa 107:9; Psa 111:5; Psa 132:15; Psa 136:25; Psa 146:7; Psa 147:14, Gen 26:1, 2, 3, 1Ki 17:8-16, Job 5:19, 20, 21, 22, Pro 10:3; Pro 13:25, Isa 33:16; Isa 41:17; Isa 65:13, Eze 36:29, 30, Joe 2:26, Mat 4:4; *Mat 6:31, 32, 33, Luk 1:53; +Luk 6:38; Luk 12:22, 23, 24; Luk 22:35, *Php 4:11; Php 4:18; Php 4:19.

Posted in Bible Promises, Bible Study Tools, Christian Living, Daily Bible Nuggets, How to Study the Bible | Tagged , , | 1 Comment

The Cure for Anxiety

Posted on October 7, 2022 by Jerry

Special thanks to Ken Sagely for sharing this on Facebook today. Each of the referenced verses make for delightful Bible study using cross reference Bible study.

Psalm 37.3 Trust in the Lord.
Psalm 37.4 Delight thyself also in the Lord.
Psalm 37.5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; Trust also in Him; and
He shall bring it to pass.
Psalm 37.7 Rest in the Lord, and Wait
patiently for Him.
To Trust, Delight, Commit, and Rest,
Were this our daily prayer,
Would yield the precious fruit of peace
and freedom from all care.
Would keep our hearts rejoicing,
With a mind, at peace and rest,
And happy in our Father’s love,
Whose ways are right and best!!
Posted in Ken Sagely contributions | Tagged | 1 Comment

Was Jesus Punished for Our Sins?

Posted on October 4, 2022 by Jerry

Muslim Challenge:

Christians: Every sin must be punished

Christians: Jesus is sinless

Christians: Jesus is punished

My Response:

There is not a word in the Bible that I know of that specifically states that Jesus was punished for our sins. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the priestly-sacrificial atonement for our sins. Jesus bore our sins. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that God punished Jesus for our sins.

TK (Author) Responded to me:

Christians say he took the punishment of your sins. Same meaning.

scroll down and read the comments by Christians. They do say it’s a punishment

My Response:

That is what most Christians have been taught and so it is what they believe. This is NOT what the Bible itself teaches. The teaching reflects an over-emphasis upon man-made theology and theological systems (such as Calvinism). This mistaken theology has crept into every aspect of Christendom–the sermons pastors preach, the hymns which are sung, the works on theology which are written, and even the English Bible translations we read.

Most though not all Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. I am absolutely certain that the Bible, in both the Old Testament and the New, teaches the doctrine of the Trinity by necessary inference. It is clear, for example, that the New Testament teaches the deity of Christ. It is clear that the Holy Spirit is called God (as in Acts 5:3, 4). These facts alone settle the matter, and there is far more evidence than this in the Bible.

If our Lord Jesus Christ was punished for our sin on the cross of Calvary, who punished Him? Those who (very mistakenly) believe in what is sometimes called the doctrine of penal satisfaction or penal atonement affirm that Christ bore the penalty, bore the punishment, for our sin on the cross and that He experienced the full wrath of God that would have been due us.

But such a view involves the notion that God the Father punished God the Son, a view that cannot properly be supported from Scripture itself.

When English Bible translations seem to support the penal satisfaction theory of the Atonement, more careful study reveals that this doctrine is not supported by the Greek text of the New Testament. Any English translation that employs the English word “propitiation” is mistaken translation anywhere this term is used, for example. Some modern English translations have corrected this flaw.

 

TK Asks:

so what is the true teaching for Jesus’ death?

I Answered (Part 1, Galatians 3:13):

I have placed many thorough notes on this subject in my cross reference Bible study resource titled The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury (UCRT), available as a premium module for the free e-Sword Bible study software program.

I will attempt to share the answer to your question by focusing on just a few verses from the New Testament that directly relate to this subject.

(1) Galatians 3:13

  1. Christ delivered us out of the curse of the Law, having become a curse in our behalf–for it stands written: “Cursed is everyone hanging upon a tree”

(LNT, Lavender New Testament)

Note on Galatians 3:13 from my UCRT:

This is one of the verses used in an effort to prove that Christ was under a curse, under penalty of sin upon the tree. Christ became a curse in the sense that He hung upon a tree, and only in that sense! Paul did not finish the quotation in his reference to Deut 21:23 for obvious reasons; he left off accursed of God because Christ was not under the penalty of sin whatsoever!

Sin was not judged in the Person of Christ at Calvary. Atonement is not what was done to Christ, it is what He did (cf. Joh 10:17, 18).

As the Priest, He offered Himself, the Sacrifice (cf. Eph 5:2; Heb 7:27; Heb 9:14; Heb 10:12).

Atonement does not consist in an outside extrinsic force of God’s wrath penally poured out upon Christ, satisfying justice. Atonement is internalized in the Person of Christ—”And He, Himself, is Atonement….” (1Jn 2:2)—and not externalized by punishing Him.

By the innate merit of His Person, Atonement is He—by Him, through Him, of Him in Triune Oneness with the Godhead. And so, Atonement stands wrought in the merit of His Person.

The validating efficacy is Divinity, the bloodshed is in His humanity. He offered himself through Himself.

Had there not been a Divine Self through Whom to offer himself (hypostatical union), sin could not have been removed and we would be where the Levitical animal and the Calvinists left us—in sin.

The Reformation, Calvinists, and Jews have in common that they esteem Him stricken, smitten by God (cf. Isa 53:12).

But God is one God; thus the Punisher and the punished cannot be one!

Atonement by punishment is false to the Scriptures, blasphemes Christ (cf. 2Co 5:21), destroys the Trinity (cf. Mat 27:46), contaminates the purity of the Sacrifice (cf. Lev 22:19, 21, 22; Deut 17:1; Mal 1:8; Mal 1:13, 14; Heb 9:14; 1Pe 1:18, 19), limits the Atonement (cf. 2Co 5:14; 1Jn 2:2), and results in salvation concepts on the level of the Law (cf. Rom 2:13; Eph 1:7), thus stripping the Gospel of its saving essence and transforming power! (Cf. Rom 3:20-31; Rom 5:1; Eph 4:24; Col 3:9, 10).

Atonement by punishment is a satanic perversion of Christ’s work on the cross! The greatest urgency of our time is that the people of God rise up and take Calvary back! (Cf. 1Co 1:18 and note) [LNT, fn l].

 

Part 2, 1 Peter 2:24

Here is another New Testament text that is very important to consider in answering your excellent question:

(2) 1 Peter 2:24

  1. Who Himself bore up our sins in His body upon the tree, that we, having died to the sins, may live in the sphere of righteousness–by the wound of Whom you were restored. (LNT, Lavender New Testament)

Note (very long but worthy of careful study!) on 1 Peter 2:24 from my UCRT:

1 Peter 2:24

his own self. Christ is shown emphatically in the double nominative construction, hos autos, Who Himself, and as having acted, i.e., He bore up. That Christ bore up our sins has nothing to do with the punishment of His Person, and cannot. The direct object of anēnegken (bore up, aorist active indicative) is the sins (tas hamartias); and if anēnegken means punished, then it will read: “Who, Himself, punished (anēnegken) the sins of us in the body of Him upon the tree….”

Neither Christ nor sins are said to have been punished (cf. Rom 8:3; Gal 3:13 and notes). This Scripture deals with what Christ did for us; He bore up our sins. The main idea of anēnegken is associated with movement. The preposition ana shows movement of an upward direction; pherō speaks of movement of a load, to bear, carry. So, to move by carrying or bearing upward to something, the cross is in mind here (LNT, fn w). *Exo 28:38; %=Exo 32:30; Exo 32:32, *Lev 16:17; Lev 16:22; Lev 22:9, *Num 18:22, *Psa 38:4, **Isa 53:4, 5, 6; **Isa 53:11, *Mat 8:17; Mat 26:38, *Joh 1:29, 1Ti 2:6, *Tit 2:14, +*Heb 9:14; Heb 9:26; Heb 9:28 note. 1Jn 3:16.

bare. or, bore up. Gr. anapherō (S# G399, Heb 7:27), to take up (literally or figuratively) [Strong]. FS121C1E, +Gen 19:15.

Christ is not shown here as a penal substitute.

Rather, He is our sin-bearer, who bore our sins to or up on the cross, resulting in their removal (Heb 9:25, 26).

The action described here is not punishment.

If it were, who was punished, and by whom?

Surely God the Father did not punish God the Son on the cross, which would disrupt the Trinity!

There is no thought in Scripture of this being a punishment of Christ, or a penalty, any more than there is in the type in Leviticus 16 of any punishment or penalty of the two sacrificial animals in the Levitical sacrifice of the great Day of Atonement.

There is thus no “payment for our sins” involved: this is language which comes from the writings of Anselm long after the New Testament, and is added to the Bible, not something found in the Bible, and is a mistaken point of view involving teaching based upon the Penal Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement.

Here we have our Lord Jesus Christ Himself the High Priest and the Sacrifice, thus the Priestly-Sacrificial Atonement. 1Pe 2:5, Gen 8:20; Gen 22:2; Gen 22:6; Gen 22:9, Exo 24:5; Exo 28:43; Exo 29:18, Lev 3:8; Lev 3:13; Lev 5:1; Lev 7:18; Lev 10:17; Lev 14:20; Lev 16:8 note, Lev 16:21, 22; Lev 17:16; %+Lev 20:17; Lev 22:16; Lev 24:15, Num 14:33; *Num 18:1, Psa 69:4; %*Psa 88:7, *Isa 53:4, 5, 6; *Isa 53:10, 11, 12, Eze 4:4; Eze 18:20, 1Co 11:24; 1Co 13:7, **+2Co 5:21 note. Gal 6:2, Heb 7:27; *Heb 9:28 note. Heb 10:4 note. Heb 13:15, Jas 2:21, *1Jn 3:5.

our. 1Pe 2:21, *Isa 53:4, Rom 4:8, **1Co 15:3, Gal 1:4, 1Jn 2:2; 1Jn 4:10.

sins. Gr. hamartia (S# G266, Rom 6:1). Our sins translates tas harmartias hēmōn, literally the sins of us. The sins are the direct object of the verb and the terminus or end of the action of anēnegken. It was the sins that He bore up. And certainly he did not bring the sins as an offering. Further, He is disassociated with the sins that He bore up. He had no sin, nor was He under the punishment or consequences due sin. Anēnegken has to do with movement in bearing our sins upward, not punishment (cf. 2Co 5:21 note). Of us refers to believers here, but the world is not shut out. 1Jn 2:2 is stated in a universal sense: “…not concerning our [sins] only, but also concerning the world as a whole.” Peter speaks of benefits received from universal provision; John speaks of provision available for all men of the whole world (LNT, fn x). 1Pe 3:18, +=Lev 5:6, Num 15:31; Num 28:30, 2Sa 24:17, Eze 45:17, +*Joh 1:29, +*Rom 3:25; +Rom 4:25, **2Co 5:21, **Col 2:14.

his own body. Lev 4:32; Lev 4:34, 35, Zec 13:7, Mat 20:28, Luk 22:19, Joh 10:11; Joh 10:15; Joh 11:51, Rom 7:4; Rom 8:3, Eph 1:7; *Eph 2:15, Heb 9:12.

  1. on. or, to.

the tree. FS121D8, +Gen 40:19, *Deut 21:22; *Deut 21:23, Mar 15:24, Luk 23:33, Joh 12:32, *Act 5:30; *Act 10:39; Act 13:29, *Gal 3:13, *Php 2:8, Col 2:14, 1Th 5:10, Heb 12:2.

that we. Gal 2:16.

being dead. or, having died. Gr. ἀπογενόμενοι, S# G581, ’apoginomai,’ only here. [Negative] “The effect of the atonement is described as an actual abandonment of sin rather than release from guilt, and a redirection of life towards righteousness” (Edward Gordon Selwyn, The First Epistle of St. Peter, The Greek Text with Introduction, Notes and Essays, London, Macmillan & Co ltd NY, St Martin’s Press, 1964, p. 181). The word is defined by the Friberg Lexicon, “in relation to doing wrong cease from, have nothing to do with, be finished with (1Pe 2:24).” UBS Lexicon: “die, i.e. have no part in.” Louw and Nida Lexicon: “to cease, with a complete and abrupt change—‘to cease, to stop.’ ’having stopped sinning’ or ’ceased sinning’ 1Pe 2:24,” Thayer: “to be removed from, depart.” Cremer, Biblico-Theological Lexicon, s.v. ’apoginomai’: It denotes, not a legal, but a moral relation to sin, which is here represented according to its individual manifestations (plural), cf. Rom 6:2; Rom 7:6, Col 2:20, and indeed a relation of such a kind that the moulding of the character of the person by sin ceases any longer to be.” So a total separation from sin in this life, an experience that legal, penal, or commercial atonement cannot produce (see note at Jas 5:20). See LNT, fn y. 1Pe 4:1, 2, Rom 6:2; Rom 6:18, Gal 2:19.

to sins. Gr. hamartia (S# G266, Rom 6:1). 1Pe 4:1, 2, *Rom 6:2; *Rom 6:7; *Rom 6:11; *Rom 7:4; *Rom 7:6 mg. *2Co 6:17, *Col 2:20; Col 3:3 g. *Heb 7:26.

should live. “[Positive] Real life changing righteousness; not deliverance from guilt, but [still] left in sin; not legal, but moral; not fictitious imputation, but regenerative change” (Dr. Malcolm Lavender, Greek Grammar and Syntax Versus Calvinism, page 98). Cf. Rom 1:17 and note (LNT, fn z). *Mat 5:20, *Luk 1:74; *Luk 1:75, Act 10:35, **Rom 6:11; **Rom 6:13; **Rom 6:16; **Rom 6:22, *Eph 5:9, Php 1:11, Col 3:1, *1Jn 2:29; *1Jn 3:7.

unto righteousness. 1Pe 3:14.

by whose stripes. Gr. mōlōps (S# G3468, only here), a mole (“black eye”) or blow mark (Strong). Psa 129:3, *Isa 53:5; *Isa 53:6; *Isa 53:10, *Mat 27:26, *Mar 15:15, *+Joh 19:1.

healed. or, restored. Gr. iaomai (S# G2390, Mat 8:8). You were restored translates iathēte, an aorist passive from iaomai. This term may refer to either physical healing or restoration from the Fall, i.e., sin. Here restoration from the Fall is in mind (cf. Gen 1:26, 27; Gen 2:17; Gen 5:3; Psa 51:5; Luk 4:18; Eph 4:24; Col 3:9, 10 and notes) [LNT, fn a]. *Psa 47:3, Isa 53:5, Jer 30:13; Jer 30:17, *Mal 4:2, **Mat 8:17; Mat 13:15, +*Luk 4:18, Jas 5:16, Rev 22:2. or, restored. Gen 1:26, 27; Gen 2:17; Gen 5:3, +Psa 51:5, Eph 4:24, **Col 3:9; Col 3:10.

 

Part 3, 1 John 2:2

Here is a third most important New Testament text with my notes from my UCRT:

(3) 1 John 2:2

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (KJV)

1 Jn 2:2 And He, Himself, is Atonement concerning our sins; but not concerning ours only, but also concerning the world as a whole. (LNT, Lavender New Testament)

Notes on 1 John 2:2 from my UCRT:

he is. He himself in his own person, both priest and sacrifice (A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures).

the propitiation. or, atonement. Gr. hilasmos (S# G2434, only here and 1Jn_4:10). Atonement translates hilasmos, normally translated propitiation, but “…this involves a wrong interpretation of the term…in the NT God is never the object of propitiation since he is already on the side of the people” (Louw and Nida, § 40.12).

Propitiation or appeasement is neither Old Testament or Christian; it is paganism coming to Protestantism through Roman Catholicism and the Reformation (cf. Rom 3:25; Rom 8:3; 2Co 5:21; Gal 3:13; Heb 2:17; Heb 7:27; Heb 9:5 and notes).

Note that hilasmos, Atonement, is in the predicate nominative position; the linking verb estin, is, expresses a state of being, not action. The significance of this powerful construction is that it emphatically links the Person and His work, i.e., He and Atonement are the same—Person and Atonement. Thus Christ is the Atonement and the Atonement is He.

The double nominative He and Himself emphasize the Person of Christ in Atonement. The predicate nominative construction is the Divine declarative that Christ is the All-Sufficient One. It means that Atonement is Who Christ is, and what He is—the Priest and the Offering.

Atonement is not what was done to Christ, it is what He did as Priest and Sacrifice when He offered Himself (cf. Joh 10:17, 18; Eph 5:2; Heb 7:27; Heb 9:14; Heb 10:12).

This is intrinsic Atonement— Atonement in Christ. Atonement then is Priestly-Sacrificial in nature, and is uniquely wrought by Christ in the transcendent sufficiency of Himself. This sufficiency is so centrally of God that all external means of extrinsic atonement theories can but contaminate the Divine plan; thus, penal satisfaction, punishment, wrath, vengeance, etc. are excluded. The Remedy is so Self-sufficient and Personal that no further contribution can be made whatsoever. Here the Person of the Priest-Sacrifice consists in a sufficiency in which all other atonement theories are laid aside (LNT, fn p).

the whole. The construction holou tou kosmou means the world as a whole, whole, entire, complete; “(1) used with a noun to indicate its totality” (Friberg). John also uses this construction in 1Jn_5:19 where the word order is ho kosmos holos, “the whole world lies in the sphere of the wicked one.” John’s usage of whole, holos, cannot be evaded. Christ died for the world as a whole, the entire world! Accordingly, the Atonement is co-extensive with the Fall. Note that but also, alla kai, is an emphatic construction which adds emphasis or contrast, and so not only ours…but also the world, thus emphatically Atonement is for Adam’s fallen race! (Cf. Joh 3:16; Joh 12:32; 2Co 5:14; Eph 2:14; 1Ti 2:4) [LNT, fn q].

 

 

 

 

 

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Muslims claim Paul is a false apostle Part 5

Posted on September 29, 2022 by Jerry

9-29-22 Muslims claim Paul is a false apostle Part 5

Note: In my reproduction of the following discussion thread, I have retained the dates I inserted in my original notes. Some of the Muslim reasoning may appear to be unclear, especially when the responder made use of an indecipherable (to ordinary readers) Bible translation. But read on carefully and you will learn some valuable things about Bible reading and Bible study as well as Apologetics.

TF further asserted against Paul (Thursday, July 1, 2022):

“I persecuted and pursued the followers of this Way to the death, binding them with chains and putting [followers of Jesus] both men and women into prisons, as the high priest and all the Council of the elders (Sanhedrin, Jewish High Court) can testify; because from them I received letters to the brothers, and I was on my way to Damascus in order to bring those [believers] who were there to Jerusalem in chains to be punished.” (Acts 22:4-5 AMP)

7– Says (Deuter 18:18 and Isaiah 42:1) belongs to him based on the Seal that proves his prophethood:

Jesus Christ said:

“Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach gives solemn edut (testimony) to that which he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his eidus. The one who is mekabel Moshiach’s eidus has thereby set his chotam of attestation that Hashem is Emes. For he whom Hashem sent speaks the Divrei Hashem, for He gives the Ruach Hakodesh without measure. [Isaiah 42:1]” (John 3:32-34 OJB)

“Whoever receives His testimony has set his seal of approval to this: God is true. [That man has definitely certified, acknowledged, declared once and for all, and is himself assured that it is divine truth that God cannot lie]. For since He Whom God has sent speaks the words of God [proclaims God’s own message], God does not give Him His Spirit sparingly or by measure, but boundless is the gift God makes of His Spirit! [Deut. 18:18.]” (John 3:33-34 AMPC)

But Paul said:

“From now on let no person trouble me [by making it necessary for me to vindicate my apostolic authority and the divine truth of my Gospel], for I bear on my body the [brand] marks of the Lord Jesus [the wounds, scars, and other outward evidence of persecutions–these testify to His ownership of me]!” (Galatians 6:17 AMPC)

 

I responded to TF (Thursday, July 7, 2022):

As for “Evidences that Paul was a False Prophet,” you claim as such evidence:

7- Says (Deuter 18:18 and Isaiah 42:1) belongs to him based on the Seal that proves his prophethood:

Jesus Christ said:

“Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach gives solemn edut (testimony) to that which he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his eidus. The one who is mekabel Moshiach’s eidus has thereby set his chotam of attestation that Hashem is Emes. For he whom Hashem sent speaks the Divrei Hashem, for He gives the Ruach Hakodesh without measure. [Isaiah 42:1]” (John 3:32-34 OJB)

“Whoever receives His testimony has set his seal of approval to this: God is true. [That man has definitely certified, acknowledged, declared once and for all, and is himself assured that it is divine truth that God cannot lie]. For since He Whom God has sent speaks the words of God [proclaims God’s own message], God does not give Him His Spirit sparingly or by measure, but boundless is the gift God makes of His Spirit! [Deut. 18:18.]” (John 3:33-34 AMPC)

But Paul said:

“From now on let no person trouble me [by making it necessary for me to vindicate my apostolic authority and the divine truth of my Gospel], for I bear on my body the [brand] marks of the Lord Jesus [the wounds, scars, and other outward evidence of persecutions–these testify to His ownership of me]!” (Galatians 6:17 AMPC)

My Answer:

Once again, you are misreading and misapplying what Paul has said.

Paul, in Galatians 6:17, is declaring now that (in the book of Galatians) he has answered their heresy, the Apostle now forbids the Judaizers to distract or disturb him further by their preaching of a false gospel and by their malicious attacks upon himself.

That sounds to me exactly like what some Muslims are still doing today: failing to read Paul’s writings accurately and speaking against Paul himself, while promoting a false and very mistaken message that is totally contrary to the teaching of the Bible.

TK replied to me (Thursday, July 7, 2022):

Paul is confusing. That reflects on his confused mind. Or perhaps it’s some writers who wrote in his name

I responded to TK (Friday, July 8, 2022):

The Apostle Peter wrote in his last letter and final chapter that for some people Paul’s letters are hard for them to understand:

2Pe 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (KJV)

2Pe 3:15  Think of our Lord’s patience as an opportunity for us to be saved. This is what our dear brother Paul wrote to you about, using the wisdom God gave him.
2Pe 3:16  He talks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in his letters are hard to understand. Ignorant people and people who aren’t sure of what they believe distort what Paul says in his letters the same way they distort the rest of the Scriptures. These people will be destroyed. (CEV)

This is not to say that Paul has a confused mind. The problem resides in those who read Paul’s letters. As a reading specialist I know well the problem and how to solve it. Patient reading and re-reading is what is required.

For honest readers my suggestion is to read one short book or letter over again repeatedly for a whole month. You will notice you have made good progress when you find that you can think through the content of each chapter without looking back at the text. Then choose another short book and do the same for the following month. I have done this myself and have found this method of Bible study to be very effective at increasing my understanding of the text.

TF concluded her comment of July 2, 2022:

8– He introduced a new Gospel that attacks the Original Gospel:

Jesus Christ said:

“They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.” (John 16:2 ESV)

But Paul said:

“For [you seem willing to allow it] if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted. You tolerate all this beautifully [welcoming the deception].” (2 Corinthians 11:4 AMP)

“I am astonished and extremely irritated that you are so quickly shifting your allegiance and deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different [even contrary] gospel; which is really not another [gospel]; but there are [obviously] some [people masquerading as teachers] who are disturbing and confusing you [with a misleading, counterfeit teaching] and want to distort the gospel of Christ [twisting it into something which it absolutely is not]. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we [originally] preached to you, let him be condemned to destruction! As we have said before, so I now say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from that which you received [from us], let him be condemned to destruction!” (Galatians 1:6-9 AMP)

 

I responded to TF (July 9, 2022):

As for “Evidences that Paul was a False Prophet,” you claim as such evidence:

8- He introduced a new Gospel that attacks the Original Gospel:

Jesus Christ said:

“They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.” (John 16:2 ESV)

But Paul said:

“For [you seem willing to allow it] if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted. You tolerate all this beautifully [welcoming the deception].” (2 Corinthians 11:4 AMP)

“I am astonished and extremely irritated that you are so quickly shifting your allegiance and deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different [even contrary] gospel; which is really not another [gospel]; but there are [obviously] some [people masquerading as teachers] who are disturbing and confusing you [with a misleading, counterfeit teaching] and want to distort the gospel of Christ [twisting it into something which it absolutely is not]. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we [originally] preached to you, let him be condemned to destruction! As we have said before, so I now say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from that which you received [from us], let him be condemned to destruction!” (Galatians 1:6-9 AMP)

My Answer:

Paul is criticizing the Corinthians who questioned his divine appointment to be an Apostle to the Gentiles as directly commissioned by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul criticizes their lack of discernment, their failure to distinguish truth from error. They were all too willing to receive and believe a false gospel, the mistaken message of the Judaizers, who preached and taught “another gospel,” a different gospel that was not in accordance with the true gospel he had preached and taught to them and by which they had become saved.

Paul wrote the whole book of Galatians to counter this same system of error promoted by the Judaizers who had come with a different and therefore false gospel:

Gal 1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (KJV)

Gal 1:6  I’m surprised that you’re so quickly deserting Christ, who called you in his kindness, to follow a different kind of good news. (GW)

Paul is severely criticizing those in the Galatian churches who lacked the discernment to distinguish his true gospel from the false gospel of the Judaizers who had come among them teaching a false gospel.

Gal 1:7  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (KJV)

Gal 1:7  But what some people are calling good news is not really good news at all. They are confusing you. They want to distort the Good News about Christ. (GW)

The Judaizers were not proclaiming the original gospel taught by Christ Himself but a distorted or perverted imitation designed to deceive the hearers into believing falsehood.

Gal 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (KJV)

Gal 1:8  Whoever tells you good news that is different from the Good News we gave you should be condemned to hell, even if he is one of us or an angel from heaven. (GW)

Paul alerts his original readers and all of us today to the principle that the message of the Gospel of Christ never changes. Anyone who teaches a different gospel from that taught by Paul and our Lord Jesus Christ is teaching a false gospel.

Based upon what Paul teaches us by this statement, individual Christian believers are deemed competent to judge the doctrinal correctness of the preaching of an inspired apostle or even an angel from heaven. This pointedly teaches that the Bible is clear enough and understandable upon careful study to even the humblest believer.

There is nothing in these Bible texts which even remotely suggests that Paul was a false apostle! The very opposite is true. Those who refuse to accept the Gospel as taught by Paul condemn themselves as among those Paul severely anathematizes as false teachers.

 

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Muslims claim Paul is a false apostle Part 4

Posted on September 27, 2022 by Jerry

Muslim claim:

Evidences that Paul was a False Apostle

4– He wasn’t approved by the 12 apostles (he also didn’t witness Jesus nor his ascension nor his claimed cross and resurrection):

“For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:12 ESV)

“was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;” “nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.” (Galatians 1:16-17 ESV)

“When Peter came to Antioch, I told him face to face that he was wrong.” (Galatians 2:11 CEVUK)

“Jesus, who is known as Justus, sends his greetings. These three men [Aristarchus, Markos, and Justus] are the only Jewish followers who have worked with me for the kingdom of God. They have given me much comfort.” (Colossians 4:11 CEV)

 

As for “Evidences that Paul was a False Prophet,” you claim as such evidence:

4- He wasn’t approved by the 12 apostles (he also didn’t witness Jesus nor his ascension nor his claimed cross and resurrection):

To establish this claim you cite Galatians 1:12. I will cite the God’s Word translation for its greater clarity:

Gal 1:11  I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the Good News I have spread is not a human message.
Gal 1:12  I didn’t receive it from any person. I wasn’t taught it, but Jesus Christ revealed it to me. (GW)

The Gospel of Christ which Paul preached was not his own invention but was communicated to him directly by our Lord Jesus Christ.

In interpreting the Bible we must take care to include all the relevant evidence that applies to the subject being studied. You violated this rule of interpretation by failing to cite this text from Galatians:

Galatians 2:9
9  And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
King James Version

Paul and Barnabas were given the “right hand of fellowship” by the chief leaders of the Church, Peter, James, and John, which is solid irrefutable evidence that Paul was approved by the lead apostles.

Further evidence of this approval is found in the record of the first church council at Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15:

Act 15:1  And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2  When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Act 15:4  And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

After hearing the testimony of Paul and Barnabas, James rendered the decision of the council and authorized that a letter declaring the same be sent with Paul and Barnabas, in the company of two of their own company, a letter which stated:

Act 15:23  And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25  It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26  Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27  We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

Lastly, we read in the second and last of Peter’s letters, written near the end of his life, of his regard for Paul:

2Pe 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

What I have shared with you constitutes actual evidence that proves that Paul was accepted by Peter, James, and John and the whole church as an Apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ, utterly refuting your claim to the contrary.

As for “Evidences that Paul was a False Prophet,” you claim as such evidence:

5– He was learned and been taught Pre-Claims (didn’t deny the education):
“As Paul was defending himself in this way, Festus shouted, “Paul, you’re crazy! Too much education is driving you crazy!” Paul replied, “I’m not crazy, Your Excellency Festus. What I’m saying is true and sane.” (Acts 26:24-25 GW)
Arabic translations say “Too much books”.

The fact that Paul was highly educated has no bearing upon any claim that Paul was a false apostle. Paul was appointed by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself to proclaim the Gospel of Christ to a broad spectrum of peoples and He gave Paul the message and the wisdom to convey that message far and wide.

6– He expelled the believers from Jerusalem (indicates he had forces with him Pre-Claim):

You have correctly noted Paul’s pre-conversion extreme enmity against all who believed in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul was given the authority by the officials in Jerusalem to seek out and capture every follower of the Way that he could find.

Paul had men who accompanied him to assist in this task.

Paul was fully engaged in this task when he was present at the stoning of Steven. Paul heard the message Steven proclaimed.

As I read the record in the book of Acts I see evidence that Paul was among those who unsuccessfully debated Steven in the synagogue of Cilicea:

Act 6:8  And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Act 6:9  Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
Act 6:10  And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

The following account records that the authorities used strong-arm tactics to arrest Steven under false pretense.

But notice the mention of Cilicia. Cilicia was a province of Asia Minor, of which Tarsus was the capital. Paul or Saul was known as “Saul of Tarsus,” which confirms the connection I have made.

Despite all his great education, Paul was unable to withstand the force of the evidence and argument proclaimed by Steven that Jesus is the Messiah.

This weighed heavily upon Paul’s conscience until his conversion on the Damascus Road when Paul encountered in person our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

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