Muslim documentation in the Opening Post:
Islam is the religion of Good Morals:
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Abu Ad-Darda’ reported that the Prophet (PBUH) said:
“Nothing is heavier on the scale than good character.”
Al-Adab Al-Mufrad
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Abdullah ibn ‘Amr said:
“The Prophet, (PBUH), was neither coarse nor loud. He used to say:
“The best of you is the one who has the best character.”
Sahih Al-Bukhari 6035
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Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, (PBUH), said,
“I was sent to perfect good character.”
Al-Adab Al-Mufrad
Grade: Sahih (Al-Albani)
My Answer:
No match for the morality of our Lord Jesus Christ who lived an absolutely sinless life.
Muslim Moderator (MM) response:
how can you attribute to Jesus or God that a rape victim should be forced to marry her rapist. Or women are not allowed to speak in the church. Or a non virgin should be stoned to death if her husband declares she is not a virgin. Or a slave that should obey his master.
Are these the biblical morality you attribute to Jesus and God!?
My Response to MM:
Where in the Koran does it teach to love your enemies and pray for them? That is what Jesus taught.
Where in the Koran does it state the equivalent of what is commanded in Romans 12:19?
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Now as for the matters you have mentioned (a rape victim should be forced to marry her rapist), it would help me answer your question or challenge if you give me the Bible reference you are referring to.
In any case, I look forward to returning to answer all your questions soon. It is getting late for me in my time zone to attempt to answer your questions adequately tonight.
Thank you for asking good questions.
MM response to me:
Allah teaches us to be Just with people even our enemies. He commands us not to be unjust with those who are unjust towards us. Understand that.
You say Romans 19:12 [Romans 12:19]. Well this is what it says in Leviticus 24:17
“‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death”.
Do not see these contradictions that men have made to the Bible. How can this be attributed to Our Perfect Lord Our Creator. How!?
And before you say that Leviticus 24:17 is the old law read Matthew 5:17-18 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose
Think about the angle im presenting here.
The law for raped girls begin forced to marry their rapist. Deuteronomy 22:28-29. “If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.” This is Madness
Pure Is Allah above all these things. You really wanna learn about Isslamic morales read a book called Adab ul Mufrad.
My response to MM:
You comment:
“Allah teaches us to be Just with people even our enemies. He commands us not to be unjust with those who are unjust towards us. Understand that.”
If true, this is good. Where in the Koran is this taught?
You ask:
“do you love Hitler?”
If he were still alive I would love him enough to pray for his conversion to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus taught:
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
As for Leviticus 24:17, taken in context, this law involves prescribing the death penalty for intentional murder of another person. These laws in context set a limit upon the extent of punishment to be rendered for violent crimes. These laws establish the principle of the rule of law, not of men:
Lev 24:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
Lev 24:18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
Lev 24:19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
Lev 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
Lev 24:21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.
Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
I plan to return later today to answer more of your questions.
MM responded to me:
To begin with here are three verses from the Qur’an.
“O you who believe! Stand firmly for Allah as Just Witnesses, and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you Unjust. Be just! That is closer to Righteousness. And be mindful of Allah. Surely Allah is All-Aware of what you do.” (Surah 5 verse)
“And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it, but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation – his reward is [due] from Allah. Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers.” (Surah: 42 Verse 40)
And worship Allah and do not associate with Him anything, and be good to parents and to kinsmen and orphans and the needy and the close neighbour and the neighbour who are strangers and the companion at your side and the wayfarer and to the prisoners of war you own. Surely, Allah does not like those who are arrogant, proud (Surah 4 verse 36)
Moving on…Hitler was a Christian. He grew up as a Christian in a country that identified as a Christian country. His mother and father were both Christians. These are the facts. To assume anything else has no basis.
So Hitler is a Christian. So i ask, “Do you love him” And he, according to your belief, will be forgiven for his crimes because You say Jesus died for you sins. Is that not what Christianity teaches. Think deeply about what im saying. Dont just try and be right or sound right. Reason man!
Moving on…
Can you not see that you yourself is highlighting biblical verses that are contradicting. What is it! do you forgive thy neighbour or do you blemish him if he blemishes you!?
Think man! Use your Reason. Our Creator is Perfect man. Dont just try and be right. Use your intellect and think independently.
Lastly and very interestingly you have made no further mention of the forcing the rape victim to marry her rapist as stated in the Bible…
Our Creator says:
“Do you enjoin righteousness upon others while you ignore your own selves, although you keep recite the Scripture? Will you not then reason?” (Surah Baqarah Verse 44)
My reply to MM:
There is no evidence that Adolf Hitler was ever a genuine Christian. And even if it were possible to prove that he was, the Bible firmly teaches the doctrine and danger of apostacy. Apostacy results in no salvation.
Thank you for furnishing the verses I asked for from the Koran.
You comment:
“Can you not see that you yourself is highlighting biblical verses that are contradicting. What is it! do you forgive thy neighbour or do you blemish him if he blemishes you!?”
The Bible does not contradict itself. When you think you have found a contradiction, almost always the problem arose because you have misread or misunderstood the Bible.
There is nothing in what the Lord Jesus Christ taught that suggests that those who believe in Him are to engage in tit-for-tat retaliation against our enemies. That is why I cited Romans 12:19,
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (KJV)
Rom 12:19 Beloved, don’t be obsessed with taking revenge, but leave that to God’s righteous justice. For the Scriptures say: “If you don’t take justice in your own hands, I will release justice for you,” says the Lord. (TPT)
You comment:
“Lastly and very interestingly you have made no further mention of the forcing the rape victim to marry her rapist as stated in the Bible…”
I plan to return to explain that next. I have not forgotten.
MM replied to me:
see you fail to accept facts. Hitlers mother and father were Christians. Whats apostasy got to do with it…?
According to your belief, anyone who accepts christ his/her sins are forgiven, irrespective of what sin they had done.
You say the bible does not contradict its self. Then explain are you to Forgive your enemy or is it eye for an eye. Which is it?
I look forward to your answer insight regarding the rape victim being forced to marry her rapist.
My reply to MM:
Thank you for your patience in awaiting my answer.
(1) As for Adolf Hitler, the faith of his parents has no bearing upon his own personal salvation and relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ. His salvation is a matter of his continuing relationship with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (John 17:1-3). If this relationship was never established, he was never saved and therefore never a Christian. If he did establish a relationship with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, if he failed to continue (Colossians 1:23) in that relationship by engaging in moral or doctrinal apostacy, he no longer was saved.
Joh 17:1 When Jesus had said all these things, He lifted His eyes to heaven and said: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that He may glorify you,
Joh 17:2 just as you have given Him authority over all mankind to give eternal life to all whom you have given Him.
Joh 17:3 Now eternal life means knowing you as the only true God and knowing Jesus your messenger as Christ. (Williams NT)
(2) The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7) if we walk in the light as He is in the light. If we fail to continue in that walk, we are no longer saved (John 8:31. Colossians 1:23).
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (KJV)
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (KJV)
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
(3) As for whether we are to forgive our enemies or retaliate “an eye for an eye,” the Bible does not contradict itself. Jesus commanded us to forgive our enemies. That is a command to each of us as individuals. The issue of “an eye for an eye” is a limitation on the degree of punishment that judges in Israel were allowed to require after judicial investigation. It has no reference to personal retaliation of one individual against another.
(4) Concerning the matters about rape in Deuteronomy 22:
a) adultery between two consenting adults, a man and an engaged woman:
Deu 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
Deu 22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
b) the forcible rape of an engaged woman, whose innocence is assumed:
Deu 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
c) the seduction of an unengaged woman (see also Exodus 22:16, 17):
Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
The underlying Hebrew text is so worded that the damsel is not forced to marry the rapist, but if she does, the man she marries may not divorce her.
In any case, that man is required to give her father “fifty shekels of silver,” what we might call a dowry. This custom was designed to soften the economic blow to the family from the loss of their daughter’s labor in the family.
Therefore, to suppose that the victim of forcible rape was required to marry her rapist is a mistaken and utter misreading of the text.
[I used two resources by Paul Copan from my Logos Bible software program which helped me formulate a clearer explanation of Deuteronomy 22:23-28.]
