The Nugget:
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (KJV)
My Comment:
Anyone who has carefully read the New Testament, or even the Bible as a whole, knows immediately as they read Hebrews 5:7 that this verse does not say that Jesus was saved from death, therefore He did not die on the Cross!
Let this be a careful warning to every reader of the Bible that the Bible must be read in its total context.
I encourage everyone to read the New Testament in its entirety for themselves. Yes, contrary to the teaching of some churches and religious organizations, the Bible can be understood by the ordinary person who will read it regularly and faithfully.
Based on my experience going back to August of 1953, I recommend that you read the New Testament long enough each day (at least a total of 20 minutes) and often enough each week (at least four days a week) on a continuing basis to get the great benefit such Bible reading can provide to your life.
The Challenge:
I read an Opening Post that brought up Hebrews 5:7 on a Christian and Muslim discussion site. Muslims make a fatal mistake when reading Hebrews 5:7 by not following the Rules of Interpretation I have discussed here in the October 2010 Archives found on the right-hand side of every page on this site. Many Muslims apparently believe that Hebrews 5:7 proves that Jesus prayed that He would not die, and God answered that prayer and saved Jesus from death on the Cross.
Let me share the discussion I had with the author of the Opening Post. I furnish absolute proof based upon the grammar of the underlying Greek text of Hebrews 5:7 that what Muslims believe about this Bible text is utterly mistaken.
The Discussion:
From the Opening Post:
*During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.(Hebrew 5:7) This verse clearly indicates Jesus was saved.
*There are no single reference where Jesus said “I will be killed” or “I will die for your sin” or any other direct reference to himself. Instead he always said “ Son of Man” which is not a definite evidence of Jesus himself.
Even more interesting is when I ask a Christian to explain it, every Christian will have a different answer. Seems like it’s not important what Bible says or what Jesus said about but it’s all about how to make it look good and logical regardless of verifiable evidence.
My Response:
Your interesting questions can be answered by carefully reading and studying the New Testament as well as the Old Testament.
Jesus foretold His manner of death. Jesus predicted He would arise bodily from the dead “on the third day.” This was well-known to His enemies. Otherwise, why did His enemies take special care to guard the tomb where He was placed?
If even His enemies understood this at the time, why is it that you do not understand this now?
Jesus predicted His own death and resurrection.
You think He was wrong in His predictions.
Was Jesus a false prophet?
Post author’s response to me:
if Jesus already knew when and where he will be killed, why he fled to Egypt from King Herod ?
He should have known that his killer is not Herod and not the time yet.
My reply:
The flight to Egypt was advised if not commanded by an angelic message to Joseph when Jesus, humanly speaking, was just an infant.
Pro 22:3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.
Post author’s response to me:
Angel clearly said Herod planned to kill Jesus and that’s why Jesus went to Egypt
My reply:
Jesus was taken to Egypt to preserve His life as an infant when threatened by Herod. That represents no weakness on the part of our Lord Jesus Christ but prudence on the part of his parents who heeded the warning brought by the angel.
“*There are no single reference where Jesus said “I will be killed” or “I will die for your sin” or any other direct reference to himself. Instead he always said “ Son of Man” which is not a definite evidence of Jesus himself. “
You need to read the New Testament in the manner I suggested so you can understand it more accurately:
Read the New Testament long enough each day (at least a total of 20 minutes) and frequently enough each week (at least four days a week) on a continuing basis to get the benefit of the new spiritual life it will bring.
Your statement that “”*There are no single reference where Jesus said “I will be killed” or “I will die for your sin” or any other direct reference to himself” represents a flaw in your logic that is called “the exact word fallacy.” Jesus repeatedly predicted both His death and His bodily resurrection “on the third day.”
Jesus used the title “Son of man” repeatedly of Himself, starting at Matthew 8:20,
Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
When this title is used in the Gospels it is always a reference to our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a title taken by our Lord Jesus Christ from Daniel 7:13-14,
Daniel 7:13-14
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
King James Version
Post author’s reply:
God can be threatened by human ?
My Reply:
That may be a “loaded question”!
God the Father can not be threatened by man:
Psa 2:2 Kings take their stands. Rulers make plans together against the LORD and against his Messiah by saying,
Psa 2:3 “Let’s break apart their chains and shake off their ropes.”
Psa 2:4 The one enthroned in heaven laughs. The Lord makes fun of them. God’s Word translation
God the Son, Jesus the Messiah, likewise could not and cannot be threatened by man:
John 7:6
6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
King James Version
John 7:30
30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.
King James Version
John 8:20
20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
King James Version
John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
King James Version
Post author’s response:
such a long essay to avoid answering
Father can’t be threatened but son can two different types of God ?
My reply:
What I presented is hardly a long essay! I demonstrated that neither the Father nor the Son can be threatened. I gave you direct references quoted in full to support my answer to your challenge.
Now as to “such a long essay”–that well describes your Opening Post.
You refer to Hebrews 5:7 and make the mistaken interpretation that Hebrews 5:7 asserts that Jesus did not die because His prayers were answered.
The problem with that interpretation is that it does not agree with the grammar of the underlying Greek text. Where most English translations read “able to save him FROM death,” the Greek text actually reads “able to save him OUT OF death.”
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (King James Version)
More accurate or more literal translations properly read “out of death”:
Heb 5:7 For during His human life He offered up prayers and entreaties, crying aloud with tears to Him who was always able to save Him out of death, and because of His beautiful spirit of worship His prayer was heard. (Williams New Testament)
Heb 5:7 Who, in the days of his flesh, having offered up, both supplications and entreaties unto him that was able to save him out of death, with mighty outcries and tears, and been hearkened to by reason of his devoutness, (Rotherham, Emphasized Bible)
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of His flesh, having offered up both prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears to the One being able to save Him out of death and having been heard because of His obedient fellowship, (Lavender’s New Testament)
The correct translation is not FROM death, for the Greek word is EK, not APO. He went down INTO DEATH but was saved OUT OF (Greek, EK) it by resurrection, as explained in the margin note of the Companion Bible.
Post author’s reply to me:
verse clearly says he left because Herod was planning to kill Jesus
My reply:
I suspect you already said this.
Jesus, according to the New Testament record, was fully human and fully divine. He had two natures in one Person. In theology this is called the hypostatic union.
As an infant, the human Jesus was under the care of Joseph and Mary. This was by divine appointment.
Are you suggesting that Joseph and Mary should have disregarded and disobeyed the warning given to Joseph by the angel that for the child’s safety he and Mary should escape to Egypt until the danger was past?
That would be to tempt God in the same manner the devil or Satan suggested to Jesus during the temptation in the wilderness that Jesus jump off the temple:
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Satan knew how to quote what the Bible says, but in doing so, he revealed that he does not choose to follow the rules of interpretation.
In turn, Jesus answered Satan’s challenge by properly quoting applicable Scripture that settled the matter.
My Conclusion:
It is clear that the Muslim author was not able to follow an argument and answer it.
As part of the Opening Post the Muslim author criticized how Christians have failed to meet his challenges then concluded with a text from the Koran:
Some Christians will come up with a counter question or find every possible excuse to avoid answering. Some Christians will get angry or come up with silly question like “How many wives Muhammad had ?”
I wonder what his marriage has to do with the crucifixion of Jesus ? It’s like asking a woman about her weight. Anger or insult should be expected instead of logical fact based answers. Truth should make me proud and confident facing any difficult questions. If I find myself dodging a question or embarrassed to give a clear honest answer, I can’t claim to defend truth.
This can be summarized by this verse in Quran 4:157,
“those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.”
I find it very interesting that the very criticisms he makes about how Christians fail to meet his arguments or answer his questions are the very things he has done in this discussion with me!
If the Koran teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross, then the Koran contradicts the New Testament record, and on this point at least the Koran is proven wrong.
