The Muslim challenge:
“A new heavenly or glorified body should be free from blemish but Jesus was ‘resurrected’ with injuries he sustained at ‘death.’ This is major proof that he did not die.”
TK states:
actually none of the disciples witnessed his persecution or death. They fled when he was caught. Some Christians speculate that they came back to watch. But that’s mere speculation. The gospels only mentioned John with his mother Mary but the story is also doubtful cos their position changed from at a distance, to nearer to him to just below the cross. The records itself is so inconsistent, leaving us with doubt that they were even there. Furthermore, Jesus apparently told John to take his mother home. Strengthening the belief no one witnessed his death.
And truly no one saw his resurrection.
If anyone told you there are witnesses, they’re lying. None of the gospels mention anyone seeing him rising from dead.
My response:
By your comments I must conclude that you have never read the New Testament record carefully for yourself.
Peter saw a portion of the events.
John saw even more and testifies to the facts in his Gospel and letters.
Mark was also at the scene of some of the events.
A number of women from Galilee who were both disciples and supporters carefully observed these events.
I hope you will take the time to correct your mistaken opinion by carefully reading and believing the primary source documents in the New Testament for yourself.
TK’s response to me:
your conclusion is wrong. The crucifixion event is something i paid a lot of attention on, more than any other parts of the gospels. I read all the 4 accounts in detail and comparing them. I even had lengthy discussion with a christian admin and in the end he couldnt resolve the discrepancies found across the gospels, and just left it to faith.
btw, why do christians always assume Muslims make noise about their bible without having read it carefully first?
You can stop your false assumptions about me.
My response to TK:
The evidence that my assumptions are not false is provided by your statements about and against the truth of the historical record preserved in the 27 primary source documents now found in the New Testament.
Your opening post, stating that:
“A new heavenly or glorified body should be free from blemish but Jesus was ‘resurrected’ with injuries he sustained at ‘death.’ This is major proof that he did not die.”
is pure assumption not based on the evidence of historical fact.
The fact of the empty tomb (acknowledged by all historians who have made a study of the evidence), the fact of the otherwise inexplicable utter change in the disciples from men hiding in fear to fearless proclaimers of the resurrected Christ is explained by the fact that they saw and handled the person who now is the risen from the dead, complete with the identifying marks of the crucifixion, risen Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
That you or anyone else can read the four Gospel accounts and find what appear to be discrepancies to you does not detract from their historical truthfulness or validity. It is most common to find apparent discrepancies between accounts of eye witnesses to an event even in our day. Just ask any experienced trial lawyer or criminal investigator about their experiences.
The fact that the witnesses recorded in the four Gospels do not report exactly the same things in the exactly same words or order testifies to their independence as witnesses. It proves they did not collude to concoct a unified testimony. It proves their accounts are actually true.
Now, if you believe you have found any fatal discrepancies in the Gospel record, feel free to share one or two examples. I may be able to share with you what are the answers to the supposed discrepancies you have found.
TK replied:
I just brought up one fatal discrepancy.
Glorified body but with wounds suffered at death
Major discrepancy!!
But instead of dealing with this issue, you go on and on and on about the truthfulness of his resurrection
I answered:
It would seem most obvious that the wounds Jesus suffered at His crucifixion were indeed totally healed. This, of course, is in itself an additional miracle associated with the resurrection.
You may remember that Thomas was not present when the rest of the disciples were gathered the first time Jesus appeared to them after His resurrection. Thomas did not believe the report of the disciples that they had actually seen Jesus alive.
Thomas said he would not believe unless he both saw and felt the marks of the nails in His hands and felt the wound in His side:
Joh 20:24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
Joh 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them.
Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”
Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
Notice two or more additional miracles reported in John’s narrative. Jesus entered the locked room and stood among them. Jesus invited Thomas to satisfy his stated requirements before Thomas would believe. Thomas believed.
The marks in the body of Jesus proved that He is the same person who had been placed in the grave after His crucifixion. This proves His bodily resurrection.
This shows that sometimes our human reasoning is mistaken. To suggest, as you have, that Jesus in His glorified body should not have retained the scars of His wounds on the cross, is mistaken. Jesus Himself convinced His disciples that He was the very same Jesus who was crucified but now is risen from the dead.
Luk 24:36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!”
Luk 24:37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?”
Luk 24:42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,
Luk 24:43 and he took it and ate before them.
TK’s response to me:
your first point (his wounds totally healed) is your opinion, not based on evidence.
Then you contradict yourself saying Thomas saw the wounds and was convinced.
Thirdly if he could enter the closed room, why did he have to roll the tomb door to get out?
My response:
Thank you for continuing this conversation.
If Jesus appeared before His disciples in the locked room still suffering from his wounds at Calvary, he would surely be in bad shape.
The spear thrust to His side alone would have permanently disabled Him.
With nail wounds through His feet He could hardly have been walking around.
There is nothing in the historical record preserved in the New Testament documents that suggests in any way that He was suffering from unhealed wounds.
Therefore, my opinion is based on the evidence we actually have.
The fact that the appearance of Jesus to the disciples transformed them from being very frightened (they had taken refuge where they did “for fear of the Jews”) to being very bold ever after in their proclamation of the bodily resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ confirms the correctness of what you call my opinion.
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
As for who moved the stone, it likely was moved by the angels who were met at the scene that are mentioned in the record.
The stone was moved to demonstrate that the tomb was empty. “He is not here” is what the record states.
Matthew 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Mark 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
Luke 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
It is not necessary to suppose that Jesus required any help to exit the tomb. Nothing stated in the record requires this supposition.
TK’s response:
You’re assuming his wounds were healed cos he seemed to be ok when he met the disciples.
But to Mary he said “don’t touch me”, obviously still in pain.
And then he was hungry and asked for fish. A glorified body gets hungry?! What?!
There is no need to roll away the tomb as a sign he’s risen, cos the women were coming and they would have found it empty.
Btw, this whole story abt tomb is also very doubtful cos until now nobody knew the exact tomb Jesus was supposedly buried in
My response to TK:
You pose some very interesting claims and questions!
(1) Unfortunately for your case, Jesus did not tell Mary “Don’t touch me.” That is a mistranslation. Furthermore, Jesus did not say that because He was still in pain from unhealed wounds!
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (KJV)
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her – Be not detaining me, for, not yet, have I ascended unto the Father; but be going unto my disciples, and say unto them – I am ascending unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (EB, Emphasized Bible, Rotherham)
The Greek grammar involved for “Touch”:
Present imperative, used to prohibit action in progress.
The Idiom involved for “Touch”:
“To touch” is used for detention, or for diverting from any purpose.
Thus, Jesus assured Mary that He was not leaving immediately, that is, ascending to heaven, but that she would have further opportunities to see Him.
Notice in this record in John’s Gospel, recorded just ten verses later, Jesus encourages Thomas to touch Him and feel the scars from His wounds:
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Notice the record in Matthew 28:9-10,
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Mat 28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
(2) Jesus was not starving from hunger when He asked if they had any food to eat. Rather, He wanted to assure them that He was indeed their risen Savior, emphasizing “that it is I myself”:
Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
(3) There was certainly a need to roll away the stone door that blocked the entrance to the tomb. One of the worries the women expressed was how were they to gain entrance to the tomb so they could complete the task of properly preparing the body of Jesus:
Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
Mar 16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
(4) There is no indication in the text of the New Testament that the women were unsure of which tomb Jesus was laid!
Mar 15:43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
Mar 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
Mar 15:45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
Mar 15:46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
Mar 15:47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.
Luke records:
Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
This testimony of Luke, corroborated by Mark, effectively demolishes the notion that the women did not know precisely where the tomb of Jesus was!
