There have been continuing and scattered discussions here on Real Bible Study that pertain to the Bible doctrine of Hell. I have permitted links to other sites graciously shared by posters which present alternative views, alternative, that is, to the traditional or orthodox view. But it is not easy for those who read this site to find what has been presented on this subject here. My goal in this series is to present what the Bible teaches on this important subject.
When studying any Bible subject, it is necessary to consider all the evidence. It is necessary to follow the rules of interpretation as I have posted them in the October 2010 Archives readily available to the right on this page.
I liken real Bible study to taking a trip to Robinson Crusoe’s deserted island, and like him, taking the time to consult the Bible itself, rather than starting from denominational commentaries and resources.
In previous discussions here I have stated that there are some unbiased Bible study tools allowed on Robinson Crusoe’s island, though when Robinson was there all he had access to were “three good Bibles,” all of which were plain text Bibles without notes or commentary. Such acceptable tools include other English translations, the original language text for those who can read it, concordances, lexicons, Nave’s Topical Bible, and a source of cross references such as The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, or Nelson’s Cross Reference Guide to the Bible.
One could quibble as to whether cross reference sources are biased or not. When I have been challenged before about this, I have asked the challenger to please give one or more examples of any biased cross references he or she has encountered in the resources I have suggested. No one has ever met that challenge.
But now to the subject of hell itself. I draw the following material from page 552 of Nave’s Topical Bible:
HELL. The word used in the King James Version of the O.T. to translate the Hebrew word sheol, signifying the unseen state, in Deuteronomy 32:22. 2 Samuel 22:6. Job 11:8. 26:6. Psalm 9:17. 16:10. 18:5. 55:15. 86:13. 116:3. 139:8. Proverbs 5:5. 7:27. 9:18. 15:11, 24. 23:14. 27:20. Isaiah 5:14. 14:9, 15. 28:15, 18. 57:9. Ezekiel 31:16, 17. 32:21, 27. Amos 9:2. Jonah 2:2. Habakkuk 2:5.
Translation of the Greek word hades in the N.T. of [the] King James Version, the unseen world, Matthew 11:23. 16:18. Luke 10:15. 16:23. Acts 2:27, 31. Revelation 1:18. 6:8. 20:13, 14.
[Translation] of the Greek word gehenna, signifying the place of torment, Matthew 5:22, 29, 30. 10:28. 18:9. 23:15, 33. Mark 9:43, 45, 47. Luke 12:5. James 3:6.
[Translation] of the Greek word tartarus, signifying the infernal region, 2 Peter 2:4.
Sheol is also translated grave in [the] King James Version in Genesis 37:35. 42:38. 44:29, 31. 1 Samuel 2:6. 1 Kings 2:6, 9. Job 7:9. 14:13. 17:13. 21:13. 24:19. Psalm 6:5. 30:3. 31:17. 49:14, 15. 88:3. 89:48. 141:7. Proverbs 1:12. 30:16. Ecclesiastes 9:10. Song of Solomon 8:6. Isaiah 14:11. 38:10,18. Ezekiel 31:15. Hosea 13:14.
[Sheol is also translated] pit, Numbers 16:30, 33. Job 17:16.
The English revisers [1881] insert the Hebrew word sheol in places where hell, grave, and pit were used in the A.V. [Authorized Version or King James Version] as translations of the word sheol, except in Deuteronomy 32:22; Psalm 55:15; 86:13; and in the prophetical books. The American revisers [1901, ASV, American Standard Version] invariably use Sheol in the American text, where it occurs in the original.
I believe the above material cited from Nave’s Topical Bible is about as unbiased and complete a display of the Biblical evidence as can be found.
I believe further that the translators of the King James Version strove to provide an accurate rendering of the original languages of Hebrew and Greek, but they did not seek to render each original Hebrew or Greek word underlying their English translation by the same English word for every occurrence. This makes for good English, but poor theology. Their literary choice has opened the door for much misconception and nonsense in Bible interpretation as often promulgated by false cults and aberrant theologies.
I hope to “unpack” this large body of evidence plainly in subsequent posts on this theme.
hello jerry this is an excellent subject to study on what the bible has to say about hell. hell has been defined as: ” the place of future punishment of wicked or unbelieving persons; it is a place of great anguish from which god is totally absent”.there are several verses in scripture bring out its teaching here are just a few. ezk 18.4 the soul that sinneth it shall die, jn 3.18 he that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of god.,rom 1.18 for the wrath of god is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.,rom 3.9 what then? are we better than they? no,in no wise: for we have before proved both jews and gentiles,that they are all under sin.,gal 3.10 for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written,cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them., gal 3.22 but the scripture hath concluded all under sin,that the promise by faith of jesus christ might be given to them that believe. rev 20.15, and whosovever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
jerry i ran across a note today from ron rhodes i thought it would be worth sharing the topic of hell. he said,”hell is the eternal abode of the unsaved, a place of unimaginable suffering also known as the lake of fire rev.20.15, eternal fire matt 25.41, a fiery furnace matt 13.42,eternal punishment matt 25.46,and destruction 11 thess 1.8-9, of course the greatest pain suffered by those in hell is exclusion from the presence of god. his presence brings fullness of joy psm 16.11, so exclusion from his presence brings utter dismay.”
Malachi 4:1-3 KJV For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Psalms 11:6 KJV Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Nahum 1:2 KJV God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
Nahum 1:6-10 KJV Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him. 7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him. 8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies. 9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. 10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.
Psalms 37:20 KJV But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 37:35-36 KJV I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. 36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Does God give His give of eternal life to everyone? Sinners and the Righteous? Nope.
That this destruction will take place here on the earth is clearly stated by the revelator as he portrays the fate of the wicked:
Revelation 20:9-15 KJV And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And to this agree the words of Peter’s prophecy:
2 Peter 3:7-13 KJV But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Ezekiel 18:32 KJV For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Psalms 37:2 KJV For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
Revelation 21:4 KJV And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
GREG BOYD
HELLBOUND
GREG BOYD #2
Hell and Mr. Fudge IMDB
Hell and Mr. Fudge – Burning Questions!
The Fire that Consumes – the Book
The Fire that Consumes – Sermon
Rethinking Hell
Hmmm – – let me try to fixup the links…
Hell and Mister Fudge – Burning Questions
Hello and Mister Fudge – IMDB
The First the Consumes – YOUTUBE
Dear A. Way,
Good to have you back.
I am starting Acts 26 today in my large project to expand the cross references available for Real Bible Study.
You comment above:
It seems there is Scripture available to arrive at a more accurate answer than you offhand suggest.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jesus taught that both the saved and the unsaved will hear his voice; that those who hear his voice shall live; that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected.
Jesus does not suggest here that those who obtain the “resurrection of damnation” are somehow short-lived.
Jesus elsewhere declares that those who are saved and those who are lost both live eternally:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Both the wording and the GRAMMAR of Matthew 25:46 require that the reference is to DURATION not RESULT, therefore eternal life and eternal punishment are of equal DURATION. The underlying Greek term for what the KJV translates as “everlasting” and “eternal” is the very same word. This word is used in Romans 16 to describe the DURATION of God Himself. No Fudging allowed here! The GRAMMAR involves two precisely parallel clauses in the same sentence, so it is not legitimate to tinker with the meaning of the same expression in the second clause to make it say something different than that expressed in its parallel.
Job – – Yep! Job was looking toward the resurrection.
Eternal – – Sure – the same duration. The punishment of the lost is eternal and the life of the saved is eternal. But do note, one has life, the other does not. They die, and are gone for eternity. It is not hard to understand at all. See the links I provided in the previous posts. Christians are rediscovering the truth!
mr way my friend, there 2 deaths spoken of in scripture.`1. physical death, rom 5.12-14. which is the termination of life of the human body. 2. spiritual death,eternal spiritual death rev 2.11,20.6,14, 21.8 it contrasts with physical death which ends one’s natural death. for example rev 20.14 and death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. this is the second death. the second death and the lake of fire in this verse are identical terms and are used of the eternal state of the wicked {scofield bible}, it is second relatively to the preceding death of the wicked in unbelief and rejection of god: their eternal state is one of eternal death.{separation from god} in sins jn 8.21,8.24. the second death is not annihilation is shown by a comparison of rev 19.20 with rev 20.10. to me its pretty clear hell is a real place .
Ken – – do you believe in the resurrection? Is it real? Where does Revelation say that the second death is spiritual? You quote the Scofield Bible? More accurately, Scofield’s commentary. See this. Using your arithmetic, death = life. Very odd is it not? Who only is immortal? Answer: 1 Timothy 6:16. Who is the creator, that created ALL things? John 1:1-4. God is love, 1 John 4:8, 16. The wicked will be carcasses: Isaiah 66:24. Satan will be turned into ashes: Ezekiel 28:18. The annihilation of the instigator of evil will be accomplished by the fires that, in the last day, will remove every vestige of sin and purify the earth for the future abode of the righteous: Revelation 20:14-15; Revelation 21:1. Here is the verse in the Bible that says there is an immortal soul: . Immortality of the soul is a Greek
There is only endless life in Christ.
If and eternal, conscious burning hell is such an important doctrine, where is it taught to Adam? The only warning given was in Genesis 2:16-17. This does not say, ” “Thou shalt, after the death of the body, be subjected to the torments of an endless hell.”
The theory of eternal torment is one of the false doctrines that constitute the wine of the abominations of Babylon. Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
mr way gen3.15 from the very beginning hell is implied in the curse on the serpent{satan} i” will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers,”he will crush your head”and you will strike his heel”. the devils final defeat will come when he is cast into the lake of fire{rev 20.10 and rom 16.20}. mr way in the nt hell as a place of punishment for those angels and humans who reject god is the lord jesus christ repeatedly taught it. he had more to say about hell than about heaven.” mt 10.28 donot be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. rather be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell”. ii pe 3.9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.
Ken – – read the words… Crush your head. What happens when your head gets crushed?
Destroy body and soul – – – Destroy – – what does that mean? You say, destroy = a conscious life – – very strange indeed… What happens when you perish? live forever??? Hardly. Crush your head, be destroyed, Perish.
Take another text: Ezekiel 28:18 AKJV You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the middle of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all them that behold you.
Devour. Does mean eternal life? bring you to ashes on the earth – – does this mean eternal life?
There is only one group of people that have eternal life. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Those that are in Christ have life. Those that do not have Christ do not have life. If you do not have life, you are DEAD. Gone. Forever. Eternally gone, destroyed, devoured, burned up, turned to ashes.
Satan preached the immortality of the soul to Eve. Not God, Satan, who was a liar from the beginning, John 8:44. No where in the Bible is it taught that the soul is immortal. Immortality is an attribute of God alone! 1 Timothy 6:16 “Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.” The teaching of the immortality of the soul is the basis of spiritualism. To quote one author: “God’s word, rightly understood and applied, is a safeguard against Spiritualism. An eternally-burning hell preached from the pulpit, and kept before the people, does injustice to the benevolent character of God. It presents him as the veriest tyrant in the universe. This wide-spread dogma has turned thousands to Universalism, infidelity, and atheism. “
Dear A. Way,
You must know that you are not handling the Scriptures accurately. You are not heeding the rules of interpretation I posted in the October 2010 archives here.
Your understanding of Romans 6:23 is incorrect, as an example of your mishandling of Scripture. When Paul writes by inspiration of the Holy Spirit that “the wages of sin is death,” what kind of death is he speaking or writing about?
Since physical death is not the penalty for sin asserted in Scripture, the death referred to in Romans 6:23 is spiritual death.
The hermeneutical flaw in your argument is the failure to distinguish things that differ, when they are otherwise asserted using the same word: in this case, “death.”
On another Bible subject, Bible prophecy, the understanding of many that think the reference to the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24 must be a reference to believers of this age is in error, because Matthew 24 pertains to Israel, and Israel is referred to in Old Testament Scripture as “elect.”
I already gave the proof in my comment above, citing John 5:28, 29, that both the saved and the unsaved live forever. The saved live in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ. The unsaved spend eternity in hell, or gehenna, or the lake of fire, a place prepared originally for the devil and his angels. Certainly the devil and his angels when finally consigned to their eternal doom will spend the rest of eternity suffering torment, as Jesus taught. Nothing in the New Testament gives any evidence that the doom of lost sinners will be cut short; rather, they suffer eternal punishment which is eternal in duration, for a time or period in duration equal to the eternal or everlasting life promised the righteous, as declared by Jesus in Matthew 25:46 also cited above.
Other interpretations of Matthew 25:46 suffer from the error of equivocation, as your arguments demonstrate nicely. But that is a fatal flaw in your argument, which makes your argument invalid, because it misrepresents what the Bible, and the very words of our Lord Jesus Christ, directly state. Equivocation takes place in interpretation when a word is used with two meanings and only one is acknowledged, or when a word is used with two meanings and a distinction between them is not acknowledged. An obvious example involves the word “tradition,” a word Roman Catholics use to describe what they believe are unwritten traditions or teachings preserved by their church from the time of Christ; but they use the same word to label their changes in doctrine, thus the development of their doctrine over time, also called tradition. This is an example of equivocation, for the kind of tradition they affirm is not in accordance with the teaching of the Bible in its use of the term.
Jerry – I could not disagree more.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
You want “everlasting punishment” to be a conscious torment. It’s not. You want to see an example of everlasting, eternal fire? Look at Sodom and Gomorrah. Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? Nope. Have they been rebuilt? Nope. They have been destroyed, and are gone – forever.
The most famous verse in the Bible, give the contrast of the saved and the lost: John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Only those in Christ have eternal life. The sinful perish. Yet you say, perish = eternal life, a life of eternal conscious torment. That is not what it being taught in the Bible.
“Since physical death is not the penalty for sin asserted in Scripture, the death referred to in Romans 6:23 is spiritual death.”Romans 6:23 is talking about total destruction. We, you and me, were created by God. We are flesh and bones. We function as a whole. If you were to have your frontal lobes removed, your personality would change. People who have strokes, can have changed in personality. You concept that there is a separate entity called a soul is certainly not scientific, and it is certainly not Biblical. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This verse can be rightly translated, “man became a living being”. The “soul” IS the “being”. So no, Romans 6:23 is talking about total destruction, annihilation.
Speaking of Catholic, your interpretation of the soul fits nicely with their tradition, which is not Biblical.
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.
Jerry says, in the resurrections – – note, all will experience resurrection – – those that have done good, have a resurrection of life, and evil, a resurrection of damnation, which Jerry says is life. So doing the math, resurrection of damnation = resurrection of life. Sorry, the math does not add up. Those that have done evil, are raised and will suffer the judgement. They will not be tortured in a conscious eternal hell for eternity, they will be totally destroyed. Their punishment will last eternally, for sure. God will remove sin from all creation. He will not let it remain as you are claiming. There will be no more pain, Revelation 21:4, the former things will pass away. Christ came to destroy the works of the Devil, 1 John 3:8. Yet Jerry, you claim he will not destroy the works of the devil. Christ came to destroy the Devil, Hebrews 2:14. Yet Jerry, you claim he can not destroy the Devil, that the Devil will live eternally.
God is Love, 1 John 4:8, 16, but if you don’t love Him, he will torture you for eternity. I don’t believe that lie. The soul that sinneth, it shall die, Ezekiel 18:4, 20. Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Again Jerry, you want to purport strange math, “die = live”. Or you want to separate the spiritual from the physical. It does not work that way.
Dear A. Way,
I just completed my work on the book of Acts yesterday. I also began the book of Romans yesterday. I wish I had more time right now to answer your every point, but that would slow my progress in completing my project to expand cross references for Real Bible Study. But just now, waiting for Sunday dinner to be prepared, I’ll take a moment and address an interesting point or two.
I would respond that if punishment is not conscious punishment, then there is no punishment taking place.
Are you affirming that torment is not a part of the punishment of lost angels and demons and men asserted in Scripture?
Mat_8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mar_5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Luk_8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
Luk_16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
1Jn_4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Rev_9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev_18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev_18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
We must also take into account this statement of Jesus:
Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This passage demonstrates (1) that unbelieving humans will be consigned to the place of everlasting fire originally prepared for the devil and his angels; (2) that the time of this assignment to “everlasting fire” has reference to an event in the next life, an event in the age to come, and so “everlasting” in that connection MUST mean DURATION, with “everlasting” used in its infinite sense; (3) which absolutely proves that eternal punishment in the everlasting fire is conscious and unending; and (4) notice that Jesus makes the claim that He himself will issue this verdict.
Not every occurrence of the word “torment” is necessarily connected with the eternal torment and punishment we are discussing.
But it is a very interesting fact taught in the Bible that when “eternal” and related terms pertain to this age, to this life, the term is sometimes used in a limited sense which may be understood to mean perpetual or continuous or even permanent in this life.
When the term “eternal” and “everlasting” is used with reference to the “age to come,” popularly spoken of as the next life, it always has reference to the infinite meaning of “eternal” and “everlasting.”
As for “torment,” when used of this age or this life, it is used in a finite sense; when “torment” is used or spoken of as taking place in the “next age” or the “next life,” it is eternal in the infinite sense, not merely in effect, but unending duration.
This answers all the texts you bring forward (such as Sodom, etc.), for Sodom was physically destroyed in this life, in this age, and so when the reference is made to the physical destruction of the cities involved, the unquenchable fire lasted only in the finite sense, and has reference only to the completeness of the destruction in the here and now. But Jude is surely making reference to more than just the destruction of the cities he names that were burned with fire. The people in those cities died physically during the earthly catastrophe, but their punishment continues in the next age and life forever in the infinite sense.
Thus, your continued effort to deny what I have proven, namely that in Matthew 25:46 the reference to “eternal” and “everlasting” are alike in both clauses used in the infinite sense, is mere assertion, in defiance of the grammar of the sentence and the known meaning of the single term in Greek underlying our English translation as “eternal” and “everlasting.” The fact is undeniable that in Matthew 25:46 the reference is to the “age to come” (see the expression at Matthew 12:32, where the KJV’s “this world” of course means “this age,” a better translation of the Greek). I have gathered cross references at Matthew 12:32 for both “this world (or age)” and the “world to come.” Therefore, since “eternal” and “everlasting” are used in Matthew 25:46 in reference not to this age, but to the age to come, the term “eternal” and “everlasting” are used in the sense of DURATION, and not mere EFFECT.
The fact that your interpretation requires, even foists a different meaning for “eternal” or “everlasting” when used in reference to “punishment” than when used for “life” in the same sentence spoken by Jesus shows your affirmation of this mistaken position to be incorrect.
Do you want to torment a sinner? Here is one way: Romans 12:20 “Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.”
Luke 16 – – A Parable. What was the point of the parable? The parable tells you! Luke 16:31 And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Revelation 9:5 KJV And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
If you had a historicist view of Revelation, you could explain this. But you are a futurist, and destroy the historical timeline be making an “unannounced” break in Daniel’s 70 week prophecy, which is contrary to what God does, for surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets, Amos 3:7 . Looking at Revelation 9:4-7:
Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
What ascends? “the smoke”. The figure of the smoke ascending forever is doubtless drawn from Isaiah 34:10, where the desolation of Edom is described. That the ancient prophet did not envision unending fires is seen from the fact that following the conflagration, concerning which he says, “The smoke thereof shall go up for ever,” the country becomes a desolate waste inhabited by wild beasts (Isaiah 34:10-15). The figure denotes complete destruction. (Malachi 4:1.)
Revelation 18 – – again, the historical view explains this.
Matthew 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
The fire is everlasting. I hope it is!!!
Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? (15) He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;
Who can life in the fire? The righteous! What is the everlasting fire? Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire. Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Psalms 15:1 Lord, who shall abide in your tabernacle? who shall dwell in your holy hill? Satan before his fall, walked in the fire! Ezekiel 28:16 AKJV By the multitude of your merchandise they have filled the middle of you with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire.
No Jerry – you have no “absolutely proved” anything. Indeed, the Bible shows that the wicked will be destroyed, eternally.
Obadiah 1:16 For as you have drunk on my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yes, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
The expression “as though they had not been” denotes complete destruction. The nations in opposition to God would cease to exist. The words of this expression have frequently been used to describe the ultimate fate of the wicked (see EGW comments at end of this chapter). The wicked will be totally annihilated. “Both soul and body” will be destroyed “in hell” (Matthew 10:28). This is the “second death” (Revelation 20:13-15).
The Bible gives us no warrant for the doctrine of an ever-burning hell in which the lost will suffer punishment without end.
I think you are the one trying to redefine “forever”, “everlasting”. You for sure are trying to redefine “death”, “dead”. You are agreeing with the lie told by the devil in the Garden of Eden, “you will not surely die”. Satan is calling God a liar. Surely you are not doing the same, are you?
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
What is the punishment? Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
You see, it is you are defining death as life. The dead know nothing.
Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
Job 1:8-9 And the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and eschews evil? (9) Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Does Job fear God for nothing?
Was Job afraid of God? No. “Fear” in this context means reverence, awe. But Jerry would say, Does Job fear God for nothing? Of course Job fears God, because if you don’t love Him, he will burn you in hell forever and never let you die, because you are eternal. Of course, only God is immortal, so that is not true. Repeatedly in the OT, you find the phrase, “do not be afraid”. If you continue to reject God, He will let you go, but the results will be disastrous. Romans 1 shows us how God’s wrath works. And what does God do? He gives them up. He has to out of the demand for freedom.
Romans 1:18-32
(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(23) And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
(24) Why God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
(25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
(26) For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
(27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
(29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
(30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
(31) Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
(32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death[not life], not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
hello mr way rev 20.10 and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. “conscious torment” rev 20.13 and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delievered up the dead which were in them;
mr way. also a very important point for you to consider is rev 20.12 and i saw the dead,small and great,stand before god; and the books were opened; and another book was opened,which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the these things which were written in the books,according to their works.there are degrees of punishment and the dead are judged according to their works.
Ken – – Where does the final judgement take place? When are the dead sinners resurrected? Revelation 20:5 “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” The first resurrection raises the righteous. The sinners are not raised until after the thousand years are finished. Why is there a resurrection in the first place, you as you believe, nobody has ever died? Seems meaningless.
The wicked dead are raised back to life. They are seen standing around the throne of god in Revelation 20:12. They stand around the throne in an alive state, because they have been resurrected back to life for the final judgement.
Revelation 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” The Devil and the wicked dead have been raised back to life. They are cast alive (not dead for dead is not alive, and they are only alive because they have been resurrected) into the lake of fire. They are consumed. See: Matthew 10:28; Revelation 20:14. This is the second death. Death does not equal alive. The wicked will die, they will be consumed, they will not be resurrected again, they are gone, this punishment will last forever. There is no coming back.
Please also note, where does this happen? Revelation 14:10 “… and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:” The Lamb is Christ. The torment is in His presence, and the presence of the holy angels. Are they also in “hell”? Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
mr way my friend you mentioned rev 20.5 and ask where the the final judgement takes place rev 20.11 and i saw a great white throne, vs 12 and i saw the dead,small and great, stand before god: answer that question. your other interpretations make no sense to me. you have your mind made up what the bible is saying before you even read them. we are saying let the bible speak for itself it interpts itself. its own best commentary isa 8.20. now in the book of revelation there are 2 verses in the book of revelation sheds additional light on the eternal state of unbelievers. at the end of the tribulation, two indiviuals know as “the beast”and the false prophet” will be “cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone[19.20].following this event,christ will reign on the earth for 1,000 years [rev 20.1-6]. during a “little season” at the end of this 1,000 yr period, satan will be loosed from the bondage he was in during the millenium and will gather a group to fight against god and his armies[vs 7-9]. satan and his forces will be defeated at that time. then, according to [rev 20.10],”the devil,who deceived them,was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. although 1,000 yrs have passed, the beast and the false prophet will still be in the lake of fire. they will not have been annihilated!
Ken – I wonder who has there mind made up before reading? You have already been shown to be wrong on the once saved, always saved notion by Jerry. Is Jerry still wrong or are you wrong on this point?
Hm – the beast is an individual? Why do you think that? In Bible prophesy, beasts are always nations or political powers, not an individual. A prophet is one that is a spokesman for God. A false prophet is one that speaks against God. And who might that be? (I know, I know) As to the Lake of Fire – what happens when Christ comes the second time? He comes in His brightness. It is His brightness that is the lake of fire. For our God is a consuming fire, Hebrews 12:29.
You did not address the question of why resurrect someone who is not dead? Of course, you have not addressed the point where you say “dead” = “alive” either.