The Text:
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (KJV)
The Complaint:
i found so annoying when christian wants to kidnap all the biblical figure, and insisting it is their cultic Jesus .Shame! really shame!l
My Response:
It is a shame that that some of the commenters here refuse to believe the Word of God as it is written in the Bible.
Who said this:
Exo 33:20 But, “he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”
Clearly these words were spoken by God the Father, who is spirit (John 4:24), and therefore not visible to man (John 1:18).
John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (ESV)
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. (ESV)
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (KJV)
Therefore, when men see God as reported in the Old Testament, in context they have seen the Angel of the Lord, who also in context is called both God and Jehovah. These instances are correctly understood to be pre-incarnate appearances of our Lord Jesus Christ as a careful comparison of Scripture with Scripture will verify.
Some of the other relevant Scripture passages which bear upon this issue include:
Exodus 24:10
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
King James Version
Genesis 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
King James Version
Numbers 12:8
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
King James Version
Deuteronomy 5:24
24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
King James Version
Judges 6:22
22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
Jdg 6:23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.
King James Version
Judges 13:22
22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
Jdg 13:23 But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.
King James Version
Isaiah 6:5
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
King James Version
John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
King James Version
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. (NET Bible)
John 5:37
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
King James Version
Those who know and properly respect the Holy Scriptures will not try to deny what is plainly revealed about Who our Lord Jesus Christ truly is.
Response to My Comment:
Those who respect our Creator and His Torah would never suggest that He would appear as a man, because to do so would be calling Him a liar!
Exodus 24:10, no description of an image is given!
Genesis 32:30 was a vision/dream, where Jacob wrestled with a man! It doesn’t say that he wrestled with our Creator and to suggest that reveals how little you think of Him!
Numbers 12:8 is speaking in future tense, proclaiming Moses will unite with Him, after death! Our Creator already made it clear that no one can look at His face and live!
Deuteronomy 5:24, no one saw an image!
Both references from judges are referring to messengers, not our Creator!
Isaiah 6:5 is referring to the vision he had. Again, a vision is not a physical manifestation!
The quotes from the Greek New Testament are irrelevant
Jesus was not a god! Jesus wasn’t even a good person!
Jesus spoke against our commandments multiple times in Mathew chapter 5!
Jesus practiced witchcraft in Mathew chapter 17, when he summoned the spirit of Moses!
Jesus encouraged pagan traditions like blood consumption in John 6:53-56! Even though Christians mimic his teachings symbolically; symbolic abominations are still abominable!
Jesus engaged in hedonistic behavior with men in John chapter 13 and is promised 144,000 virgin men “undefiled by women”, in Revelations 14:3-4!
There was nothing to suggest Jesus was anything but a man who resisted the Roman occupation and was killed for it, just like hundreds of thousands of other people.
Jesus died for the only sins he could; his own!
The days of Jesus were shortened and he had no offspring to see.
My Reply:
You state:
“Genesis 32:30 was a vision/dream, where Jacob wrestled with a man! It doesn’t say that he wrestled with our Creator and to suggest that reveals how little you think of Him!”
I respect and honor your great regard for the Torah.
If you read the immediate context of the incident recorded in Genesis 32:30 there is nothing said that would indicate this was a dream. Compare the incident recorded in Genesis 28:10-22 where the experience Jacob had is specified to be a dream:
Gen 28:10 And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.
Gen 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
In response to this dream Jacob vowed:
Gen 28:19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.
Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
However, that you would regard Jacob’s wrestling all night with the Angel to be but a dream is contrary to the physical results of that “dream” which resulted in permanent impairment of his hip:
Gen 32:31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.
Your view that this incident was but a dream seems contrary to the fact of the solemnity given this incident in Scripture which tells the circumstances upon which God changed Jacob’s name from Jacob to Israel:
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Furthermore, when Jacob makes reference to this event and more at the end of his life, Jacob states:
Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
And so all of your quick dismissals of the Biblical evidence I gave where men saw God and were frequently surprised that they yet lived could be answered by a closer examination of each text in its near and related contexts, but this first example of looking at Scripture more carefully is enough to make my point.