The Text:
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
My Comment:
Thomas (often called “doubting Thomas”) believed in the full deity of our Lord Jesus Christ when he handled and saw his bodily resurrected Lord. Thomas addressed Jesus as his “Lord and God.” That witness settles the matter for all time.
On Facebook I have visited a site called “Acts17 Apologetics” associated with David Wood. One of the posters there, Johnny Mack, claims he once believed in the Trinity. After more careful reading and study of the Bible he no longer believes in the doctrine of the Trinity. I believe I have interacted with him before, perhaps in connection with his misunderstanding of John 17:3. Just lately I responded to another of his challenges.
This material is lengthy. Bible-believing Christians need to get serious about defending their faith (Jude 1:3). Bible-believing Christians NEED TO LEARN HOW TO READ. God expects us to be avid readers of His written word in the Bible. He also expects us to carefully answer those who ask us about our faith or who challenge our faith (1 Peter 3:15).
The Anti-Trinitarian Challenge:
The biggest problem of an incarnation christology that leads to the eternal situation of a God the Son with a human nature, is it shows
1. God can change according to Trinitarians,
2. The trinity’s divine consubstantial nature has a new nature added to it in perpetuity thus changing what is consubstantial to all forever.
The ONE God must then also be truly man due to the installment of a new nature.
Think of a group like the Jackson 5. If Michael Jackson added one of his friends to sing along with him on all the songs of the album, is it still 5 people or 6?
Or consider H2O. H2O is water. We all drink it safely. If only Oxygen added another Oxygen thus H2O2, it’s no longer water, but hydrogen peroxide, which is not water. Thus even if Hydrogen doesn’t change but one molecule in the compound does, the entire compound changes.
You have to not just maintain the dual nature church tradition, I invite you to follow the logic of the idea to its logical conclusions.
If you’ll say, well, only the Son has the added human nature not the others. The above problem is still present. Imagine the logic you’d have to accept:
The three persons SHARE this single nature. And so it’s not tritheism or polytheism, it’s monotheism because these three have ONE nature, together. If one person in this monotheistic structure has a change in his nature, it is a change in the ONE NATURE consubstantial to all.
It’s nature. Not an attribute. You can’t say, the Father does this attribute, but the Son has different attributes to explain away this problem.
““For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, the sons of Jacob, have not come to an end.” Malachi 3:6 NASB2020
““For He is not a man, as I am, that I may answer Him— That we may go to court together!” Job 9:32 NASB2020
““God is not a man, that He would lie, Nor a son of man, that He would change His mind; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” Numbers 23:19 NASB2020
But if the One God nature that Jesus has consubstantial with the other two, why wouldn’t it be logical to say God is a man?
God is truly man?
Again even if you believe the ONE NATURE OF TRIUNE GOD is unimpacted by the CHANGE in one of its persons, then even Jesus, truly God truly man the God Man, it can be said of him “God is a man, truly”. Especially if you have ONE Jesus and not two.
In conclusion,
The text is simpler than these philosophies developed by non Jews in the centuries after the death of Jesus.
Instead of an incarnation Christology, I believe the text gives us an exaltation Christology. God highly exalted Jesus…
“For this reason also GOD 
highly exalted Him
, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,” Philippians 2:9 NASB2020
And…
“having become so much better than the angels, to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than they.” Hebrews 1:4 NASB2020
But doesn’t John 1:14 teach an incarnation Christology? I say no. It isn’t a person who becomes flesh, it’s God’s SPOKEN WORD that tabernacled among them. Jesus was the tabernacle of the Spoken Word of God. John 14:10 says that the Father was in Jesus. 2 Cor 5:19 says God was in Jesus reconciling the world to himself.
The text doesn’t say Jesus became flesh, it says the word did, and that word was God, God was dwelling in Jesus, and John 1:18 says, that Jesus declared the invisible God to them. Jesus was “highly exalted” by God. Only a man or person of a lower degree can be exalted. The exaltation Christology is therefore more biblical than an incarnation one.
My Response:
Did Jesus exist as a person before his birth in Bethlehem? Jesus claimed to have seen Abraham. Was Jesus mistaken? Jesus claimed Isaiah saw him. Was Jesus mistaken?
Jesus claimed he came down from heaven. Was Jesus mistaken?
I rather suspect that Johnnie Mack is mistaken and I, therefore, suggest he would profit greatly by reading the Bible more carefully than his comments so far indicate he has.
Johnny Mack replied to me:
Brother, I agree that CAREFULLY reading the Bible is to be followed. Let’s see if you have been reading these texts carefully:
1. You said Jesus said he saw Abraham. Let’s see what the text says.
“Your father Abraham was overjoyed that hewould see My day, and he saw itand rejoiced.”” John 8:56 NASB2020
According to Jesus my friend, who saw whose day? Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’s day. Jesus never said he saw Abraham. But, who else made this mistake?
“So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”” John 8:57 NASB2020
They are mistaken. They CONSTANTLY misunderstanding him. But Jesus never said he saw Abraham. But it’s all good. You’re just mistaken.
2. You said, Jesus said Isaiah saw Jesus. Let’s see what the text says.
John 12:36-41
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Does the text say Jesus said Isaiah saw him?
No. John is the one speaking.
Next, is John saying that Isaiah saw Jesus? This is a better question because it’s John who is the one speaking. Ok.
What is the context and what does John reference from Isaiah?
The context is that Jesus performed so many miracles but people still didn’t believe. So he says this fulfilled the words of Isaiah:
“Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Isaiah 53:1 NASB2020
Then he says they couldn’t believe in Jesus and refers to another place in Isaiah:
“They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see, and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.” Isaiah 44:18 NASB2020
Or…
““Make the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes blind, So that they will not see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.”” Isaiah 6:10 NASB2020
Then THE key verse which you quoted:
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
You and the orthodox, take this to be a reference to Isaiah 6.
“In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord (Adonai) sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.” Isaiah 6:1 NASB2020
But we want to read carefully. The verse says “These things said Isaiah…”. What things? Exactly. The things John referenced earlier about the eyes of the unbelievers were blinded and who has believed the report etc.
Those are the things Isaiah said that John is referring to. So does any of those things said by Isaiah happen when he saw Adonai high and lifted up???
Reading carefully the entirety of isaiah 6, we do get a clue from the isaiah 6 passage:
““Make the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes blind, So that they will not see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.”” Isaiah 6:10 NASB2020
So we are forced to make a decision:
Isaiah does see Adonai high and lifted up, and he tells Isaiah to make the hearts hard and ears dull, eyes blind etc… but is this Jesus? Or is it Adonai, the Father?
We have to understand what JOHN is trying to convey to HIS original audience about disbelief in Jesus. Is he referring to passages in Isaiah because they prove Jesus is God? No.
Re-read the passages. Those passages are about the disbelief of people not the nature of Jesus.
The key verse is verse 41. Did Isaiah say these things when he saw Jesus sitting on a throne?
Let’s read the rest of Isaiah 6 for context.
“Then I said, “Woe to me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord (Yahweh) of armies.”” Isaiah 6:5 NASB2020
Isaiah saw Yahweh in this vision. Yahweh whose glory fills the earth.
Is Jesus Yahweh? Is Jesus Adonai? Of course not. Jesus is Jesus. Yah is Yah. These are distinct persons with two separate names.
“So that they will know that You alone, whose name is the Lord(Yah), Are the Most High over all the earth.” Psalms 83:18 NASB2020
How many people are the Most High? One.
How many people are named Yahweh? One.
John 17:3, how many people are the “only true God”? One.
1 Cor 8:6, how many people are God from whom are all things? One, the Father.
This is the uphill climb of those who believe Jesus is also God.
My Reply to Johnny Mack:
Thank you Johnnie Mack! This time you gave an interesting, careful, and extended reply to my comment.
You stated:
“According to Jesus my friend, who saw whose day? Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’s day. Jesus never said he saw Abraham. But, who else made this mistake?
“So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”” John 8:57 NASB2020
They are mistaken. They CONSTANTLY misunderstanding him. But Jesus never said he saw Abraham. But it’s all good. You’re just mistaken.”
I respond:
Perhaps in accordance with your chosen theology you may think that the Jews were constantly misunderstanding Jesus.
I would argue that there are instances, including this one, where the Jews understood correctly what Jesus was saying.
Another example where the Jews understood Jesus correctly is seen in an earlier instance recorded in the Gospel of John:
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (KJV)
Notice in context Jesus does not deny the inference drawn by the the Jews.
Later in the Gospel of John, Jesus does not correct the statement of Thomas made when he saw Jesus first-hand:
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
This confession of Thomas stands uncorrected by our Lord Jesus Christ because Thomas was correct to call Jesus his Lord and his God.
Now back to Abraham.
Jesus stated to the Jews:
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
A careful reading and study of the narrative in Genesis about the three men who visited Abraham (Genesis 18:2) in the preceding and following context will demonstrate that Jesus did indeed visit then revisit Abraham who rejoiced to see his day when Isaac was born according to promise.
You make the interesting comment or claim:
“How many people are named Yahweh? One.
John 17:3, how many people are the “only true God”? One.”
As for John 17:3,
John 17:3 Now eternal life means knowing you as the only true God and knowing Jesus your messenger as Christ. (Williams NT)
Jesus by this statement declares that eternal life is dependent upon our knowing the Father as the only true God AND knowing Jesus as Christ.
When Jesus speaks of the Father as the only true God Jesus does not exclude Himself so as to deny His own Deity.
As for how many people are named Jehovah? God the Father of course is named Jehovah. But so also Jesus is identified as Jehovah numerous times in the New Testament. Even in the narrative portion of Genesis I referred to above, in Genesis 19:24 there are two Jehovahs on the same scene at the same time. One Jehovah is in heaven Who sends judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah at the bidding of the second Jehovah upon earth.
My Comment:
I guess my response, as usual, was a “thread killer.” No further discussion took place.
There is much more to know about these Bible topics. I have addressed them quite fully on this site before. I have provided the answers most fully in my Bible study resources, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, and The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury.