Atheist Meme:
God cannot be seen or heard: Exodus 33:20. John 5:37.
BIBLE CONTRADICTION!
Yes—God has been seen and heard: Genesis 3:9, 10. Exodus 33:11.
Atheist Opening Post:
Non sense from the bible
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Exodus 33:11
And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Exodus 24:9-11
Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. KJV
Atheist JA response:
If only Duane could ‘splain. I’m sure Woods could in Greek. Kathy can’t touch this. The Mikes, they’re a bipolar neuronal shunt. Now Jerome Smith ! I’m sure he’s got a library of random archaic apologetic authors to sling at this.
My response:
From my book, The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury, an expansion of my book, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, explanatory note on John 1:18,
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
hath seen God. Note.—That is, hath seen God as He is in Himself, or apart from some form assumed to render Himself visible: and thus this passage and the following references are not contradictory to Gen 32:30, or Exo 24:9, 10, or Exo 33:11, or Mat 5:8, Moreover there is reason to believe that, on the occasions recorded in the Old Testament, it was The Word or Christ who appeared in the form of that nature in which he was afterwards to be revealed. Compare Isa 6:1 with Joh 12:41, and 1Co 10:4; 1Co 10:9 (De Burgh, p. 226). Such pre-incarnate appearances of Christ are sometimes called Christophanies (Joh 8:56; Joh 8:58; Joh 12:41). For Theophanies see +Gen 12:7 and +Gen 17:1). See also Gen 19:24 note and Gen 22:15 note. Joh 5:37; Joh 6:46; Joh 12:45, Gen 16:10; **Gen 17:22; +Gen 32:30, Exo 24:10; *Exo 33:20; **Exo 33:23, Num 14:14, Deut 4:11, 12, *Jdg 6:22; *Jdg 13:22, +1Ki 22:19, Job 42:5, *Ecc 3:11, Eze 10:1, Amos 9:1, Mat 11:27, Luk 10:22, Rom 1:20, *Col 1:15, *1Ti 1:17; +*1Ti 6:16, 1Jn 4:12; 1Jn 4:20, 3Jn 1:11.
JA responded:
so you’re saying christ is not god or a god and any one who said they saw god was just seeing the word of god. But I’m sorry, the OT in this specific case is contradictory to the ordinary mind like mine. So to be a true believer requires extensive research by previous true believers, as in your case. So what is the biblical metric of research required to give a dude like me advice, how do you qualify, and where does it say anything about misunderstanding like if you’re a C student (average) versus an A student like yourself.
Because to the limited minds like Rodney and I what seems to be contradictory to the most casual observer, we’re gonna burn in hell forever and ever and ever and ever, to infinity and beyond.
My response to JA:
You responded to my commentary by asserting:
(1) “so you’re saying christ is not god or a god and any one who said they saw god was just seeing the word of god.”
What is the basis for such a conclusion on your part?
I did not say Christ is not God. The very Scripture passages I referred to actually prove that our Lord Jesus Christ is God, for He is the One who was seen in His pre-incarnate appearances, called Christophanies. Jesus asserts it is He that was seen by Isaiah:
John 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.
Isaiah 6:3
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
King James Version
Isaiah 6:5
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
King James Version
Jesus asserts that it is He whom Abraham saw:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Genesis 17:1
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
King James Version
Genesis 17:19
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
King James Version
Note: Yitzchak, which we change into Isaac, signifies laughter; in allusion to Abraham’s laughing, Gen 17:17, By this Abraham did not express his unbelief or weakness of faith, but his joy at the prospect of the fulfillment of so glorious a promise; and to this our Lord evidently alludes, Joh 8:56.
Genesis 17:21
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
King James Version
Genesis 18:14
14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
King James Version
Genesis 21:1
1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
King James Version
Gen 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.
Gen 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.
Yes, since Jesus is called the Word, when people saw God, they saw the Word of God, as found in John 1:1 and John 1:14,
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
I look forward to responding to more of your comment soon.
My further response to JA:
You further responded to my commentary by asserting:
(2) “But I’m sorry, the OT in this specific case is contradictory to the ordinary mind like mine.”
When read with the intent to learn what it says and means, the Bible becomes clearer the more you read and study it.
(3) “So to be a true believer requires extensive research by previous true believers, as in your case.”
The Bible is a self-explanatory Book. Even the Bible itself declares it is understandable. As for the extensive research done by previous believers, we surely can benefit from the results of their studies when we encounter questions that we at first cannot answer ourselves by our own study.
But the best first step is to let the Bible explain itself by reading it and noticing what it says about a subject throughout its text. I did this as a teenager by marking in the margin of my Bible the subject of a verse with a short symbol then reading in sequence where the same subject is mentioned all the verses I found on that subject.
I find it interesting that the very verses cited in the Opening Post are the same verses I have placed on this subject in my published Bible study resource which I cited from above.
(4) “So what is the biblical metric of research required to give a dude like me advice, how do you qualify, and where does it say anything about misunderstanding like if you’re a C student (average) versus an A student like yourself.”
a) The Biblical metric of research required is stated in the Bible itself:
First, we are cautioned to carefully go by the Bible itself as seen in a passage like Isaiah 8:20,
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Second, we are to search the Scriptures, as Jesus stated:
John 5:39
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
King James Version
Those who listened to the teaching of Paul at Berea searched the Scriptures daily to verify the truth and correctness of Paul’s teaching:
Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
King James Version
b) the metric required to give someone advice is stated in the Bible itself:
1 Timothy 4:16
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
King James Version
2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
c) as to how one qualifies to teach others, the answer is by having come to know the Scripture through careful, systematic, study:
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
My further response continued:
You ask a most insightful question:
(5) and where does it say anything about misunderstanding like if you’re a C student (average) versus an A student like yourself.
The way to avoid misunderstanding is to do the opposite, namely, get understanding:
Psalms 119:104
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
King James Version
Psalms 119:130
130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
King James Version
Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2 Peter 3:18
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
King James Version