Romans 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
CROSS REFERENCES FOR FULL-TEXT STUDY, PART 2:
receive. Mt *10:14, 15, 40-42. 18:5. 25:35, 40, 43, 45, 46. Mk 6:11. *9:37-41. Lk *9:5, 48. 10:8, 10, 38, 39. 15:2. Jn 13:20, 34. Ac *9:26-28, 43. *11:25, 26. *16:15. 17:7. 2 C +*6:9. 7:2, 15. Ga 6:1. Ph 2:29. Col 4:10. 1 T 5:17. Phm 12, 17. He 13:1, 2. 1 P 2:17. 3:8. +*4:8-10. 1 J 3:14. 2 J %10. 3 J %8-10.
CROSS REFERENCE TEXTS
Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Comment. It would appear from these verses that failure to receive one another is a very serious matter, serious enough to be addressed on Judgment Day.
Matthew 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
Comment: Again, the issue of receiving one another is most important. To receive another brother or sister in Christ is to receive Christ, and to receive him that sent Christ, who of course is God himself. Jesus clearly promises a reward to those who receive others.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Comment: All of us who truly believe on Christ are considered children of God (Galatians 3:26). I think, therefore, that “receiving one such child in my name” applies to receiving another believer no matter what age. Jesus said that receiving “one such little child” in his name” means receiving Jesus himself.
Just think what not receiving another believer means.
Jesus describes the offense of not receiving “one of these little ones which believe in me” in terms that are most severe.
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Being accepting of, and welcoming strangers, newcomers to church, for example, is surely a part of “receiving one another.”
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
The way we receive others surely reflects upon what we have done to Christ himself.
Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Here Christ is speaking of those who have not properly “received one another.” Our Lord speaks of this in a most frightening and serious manner, and we all need to wake up to the fact that this is not a small matter, but a most major matter with eternal consequences.
Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The manner in which you or I treat “one of the least of these” is crucial. Jesus said the way we treat someone else is the way we treat him. If we fail to receive one another, Jesus said that is what we did to him.
This leads directly into one of the greatest classic doctrinal texts in the Bible that establishes absolutely the doctrine of eternal punishment for the lost or unsaved.
Eternal punishment is as everlasting as eternal life will be.
Unpleasant as this Bible doctrine is to some who think otherwise, eternal punishment is eternal not merely in effect, but in duration.
If we can successfully argue that “everlasting” does not mean “eternal” in the same sense as eternal life does, language has lost its ability to communicate accurate doctrine in the Bible. But this is not the case at all. The words “eternal” and “everlasting” translate the same Greek word. Elsewhere, this very same Greek word is used to describe God as eternal in Romans 16:26. Furthermore, grammatically, these words are used here in two connected parallel clauses, so the meaning for one must be the same as the meaning for the other. Don’t kid yourself by falling for false doctrine which argues otherwise. It is most dangerous to tamper with or diminish the warnings given by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Some go to great length to argue that the punishment threatened here by our Lord Jesus Christ is not truly everlasting or never-ending. Those who argue this way do so in an effort to bolster their mistaken notion of justice and their mistaken view of the character of God.
Some quibble over the meaning of “eternal,” arguing from the fact that the word in Scripture is sometimes used in a finite sense, and sometimes used in an infinite sense. From this fact they justify providing a limited sense to the duration of everlasting punishment.
The answer to this objection is simple. Jesus spoke of two ages, this age, and the age to come. In the King James Version these terms are translated “this world” and “the world to come” in Matthew 12:32. When the word “eternal” is applied to things restricted to this age it is used in a finite or limited sense. When “eternal” has reference to things in “the age to come,” it is used in an infinite sense. Clearly God is eternal and will continue to exist in the age to come, just as eternal life and eternal punishment pertain to and exist in the age to come, so “eternal” is used in the infinite, never-ending sense in reference to them.
hello jerry alot of good points .paul cautions the church that even when there is a issue of church discipline as in i co 5/1-6/8 that church should carefully and prayerfully apply the prinicples of gal 6/1 brethren,if a man be overtaken in a fault,ye who are spiritual restore such an one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. the principle of restoration is key and the spirit of the brethren remembering lest ye be tempted” i co 10/12 wherefore,let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. the qualification of the leaders is that they be walking in the spirit. eph 5/18. rom 15/7 receiving one another even though we are less that perfect!
You are right, Ken. I’ve mentioned there are two types of churches sociologically speaking: the “village church” and the “camp church.” The “village church” is less about spiritual things and spiritual growth and more about not rocking the boat, letting the pastor take care of all ministry, and placing an emphasis on sports, church suppers, and the like, so long as religion and especially the Bible is kept out of it. It is hard to successfully enter such a group–the congregational leadership is in place and they do not welcome newcomers.
The “camp church” is named after the nineteenth and early twentieth century revivals held at camp grounds with a large wooden structure called a tabernacle to seat the many who came to such services. People got saved, and were eager to get into the Bible, to win souls, and to experience genuine Christian fellowship. “Camp churches” are composed of people who have truly met the Lord in a real salvation experience that impacted their lives significantly.
I attended a local “village church” for four and a half years. One of the associate pastors or his wife testified that in the three years they were there they heard of only one person who came to Christ during that time at that church.
My elderly friend Don Rees, now gone home to be with the Lord, through whom I met Uncle Frank, commented one time that if the Rapture were to take place, the church bulletin would come out right on time, the hymns would be sung and the service would proceed like normal!
Next Sunday I plan, Lord willing, to attend a country church out in the middle of nowhere but not far from here on a gravel road. My wife’s mother just told me yesterday that she went and was wonderfully welcomed. She told the pastor about me, how several local pastors have rejected me and discouraged my further attendance, perhaps because I am an author and might know something about the Bible. My wife’s mother said the pastor said to invite me to attend and remarked that he would welcome having someone come who knows about the Bible and that he was ready any time to learn something new. Perhaps this little church in the middle of nowhere is not a “village church” but a “camp church” where we at last might find some local Christian fellowship. I’ll find that out after I’ve attended there.
In the meantime we’ve been wanting to get a Kirby vacuum cleaner. Two young men came to our door, and it turns out that they were salesmen for the Kirby company. They bought four copies of my book, Nelson’s Cross Reference Guide to the Bible from me Saturday evening. I’m glad to get my book into the hands of younger people so they can learn to enjoy it and their Bible for a whole lifetime ahead of them. I did not try to sell it to them. When they learned about it, and realized what it was for, they immediately asked if they could buy one from me.
jerry thank you your sharing was a blessing! praise the lord for the guys from kirby!
Jerry is right! The punishment is eternal, everlasting, forever…
mr way jn 3/36 he that believeth on the son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the son shall not see life; but the wrath of god abideth on him! jn 1/12 but as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of god,even to them that believe on his name:,jn 6/47 verily,verily, i say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life. rom 1/17 for therein is the righteousness of god revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith. good to hear from you again mr way.
I’m glad brother A. Way sees just a little light on this subject when he says “Jerry is right! The punishment is eternal, everlasting, forever…”
But if I understand him correctly from comments he made in the past here, unless he has had a proper change of mind and correction in his understanding, brother A. Way will not agree that eternal punishment is everlasting, never ending, and conscious, involving pain and torment the whole time for all eternity future.
That is why I drew the distinction between eternal in effect and eternal in duration. The Bible teaches only the latter.
We should never demand of God what he demands of us. No. He is God. How dare we ever question what He does?
Of course, what does the Bible teach? To quote the Bible: Revelation 21:4 KJV And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. How clear is that? Very clear.
Dear A. Way,
If you check the immediately preceding context of Revelation 21:4,
you will see that Revelation 21:3 contains a citation from the Abrahamic Covenant.
Revelation 21:3 shows that the reference to God wiping away all tears, and to “there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: ” and “for the former things are passed away” has reference to believers not unbelievers. How clear is that? Very clear indeed.
Revelation 21:4 therefore does not tell us anything about the state of unbelievers, but there are other nearby texts that do tell us about them. Unbelievers continue forever in a state of very unpleasant “eternal punishment,” which involves never-ending torment in the Lake of Fire.
This contrasts with those who are saved:
The destinies are not the same, but either destiny is eternal in the infinite and never-ending sense, just as Jesus said in Matthew 25:46,
There are those who will be permanently excluded from the destiny of the saved:
It is nice to have you back making comments again.
Don’t forget:
Dear A. Way,
Both the righteous saved and the unrighteous unsaved will experience resurrection from the dead. Both live on eternally in the infinite sense. The righteous experience eternal life, while the unrighteous experience eternal death, but both have a conscious existence for all of eternity. That is the clear teaching of Scripture.
You cite Psalm 37:10,
Psa 37:10 AKJV For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
In God’s kingdom which lasts forever here upon earth, the wicked shall not be, for then the wicked will not be here upon earth. This does not mean that the wicked becomes non-existent. The Bible elsewhere describes quite clearly where the wicked will remain forever, very much alive, suffering eternal punishment that never ends. The punishment will vary from one individual to another, dependent upon their degree of responsibility and guilt, for some experience “sorer punishment” than others, but they all suffer for an equally long time–for ever.
The passage from Ezekiel 28 is a lamentation upon the king of Tyre. Some teach that the bold figures Ezekiel employs in the lamentation look beyond the local king of Tyre to what that king may be a type of, namely, Satan. I would suppose you would focus upon the statement “and never shall you be anymore.” Taken out of context, and looking only at the surface statement, this would imply annihilation. But the Bible never affirms annihilation of the person, only the physical destruction of the body, not the spirit or soul, which continues as that person fully conscious forever.
So the Obadiah passage has reference to the result for this life, and is not a statement about the status of the individual or individuals involved in the future state after death.
Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once. Those who are unsaved are born once, because they have not been “born again,” hence they have not been born “twice.” Such a person dies twice: once at the end of this physical life with the death of the body; once at the resurrection of the unjust, with the eternal death or separation from God as punishment which is the second death. Such a person continues to exist, and to suffer the punishment God metes out in the Lake of Fire for all eternity future.
Those who are born twice are those who have experienced the first birth, which is physical, and the second birth, which is transformational regenerative change brought about by the Holy Spirit when we place our faith in Christ. Those who have experienced the second birth will not experience the second death.
The term “spirit” when referring to people has several meanings, such as his
“breath”, or another is a person’s “character”. When we die, our spirit returns to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7), it is like God stores a backup copy of a person’s character. In the resurrection, God returns the character to each and every one just as it was before death. The dead know not anything, Ecclesiastes 9:5. Job 14:12 So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Psalms 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise you? shall it declare your truth? Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of you: in the grave who shall give you thanks? Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 146:4 His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. John 20:17 Jesus said to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
1 Timothy 6:16 [God] who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
God only is immortal. If God is going to torture people for ever and ever, consciously, without end, then what kind of god is that? The Bible does not teach this. We are created being, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Satan is the one that says, “you will not die”. This is a lie, from the father of lies. Woe to those that exchange the truth about God for a lie, (Romans 1:25).
The doctrine of eternal torment as a punishment for sin, leads men into infidelity and rebellion, and dethrone human reason!
Dear A. Way,
You are right that the word “spirit” in both Hebrew and Greek may mean “breath” or it may mean “character.” But this does not exhaust the meaning of this word.
But that represents what I call an incomplete induction of the evidence. You cannot base a correct interpretation of a doctrine taught in the Bible if you do not properly account for all of the evidence.
In school as an English teacher I presented a number of short poems for my students to interpret. I arranged these poems in a sequence from very easy to very hard, and presented them in that order, an order I call a “Poetry Ladder.” For each poem I asked the students to write their interpretation. I based my judgment as to the quality of their written interpretation on this very principle: the best interpretation takes full account of all the imagery in a poem.
So, in interpreting the Bible, the same rule holds.
What you have done in supporting your view is to fail to account for evidence contrary to your view. Once you have incorporated all the Biblical evidence into a harmonious view, you will have most likely come up with the correct interpretation. But not until then.
All the individual pieces of evidence must also be taken in the light of the context where they individually occur.
Here are two verses that I believe your view cannot properly account for:
It is not possible to properly interpret the expression in Matthew 10:28, “but are not able to kill the soul,” as somehow being a reference to killing someone’s character. That is not at all the meaning here. Character does not have an independent life of its own; the soul or spirit most certainly does in the light of what Jesus taught.
The notion of “killing character” would not make any sense in context, nor would it make any sense in the light of the parallel passage at Luke 12:4, 5,
Just what is it that God has power to “cast into hell”? It surely cannot be one’s “character”!
That those who have died are still conscious is most evident when Jesus says regarding these very matters, “I say unto you, Fear him.”
If such dead persons are unconscious, as your position holds, there would not be any reason to “Fear him” for those who are unconscious “know not anything.”
But Jesus commanded us all to “Fear him,” therefore, there must be good reason to fear or be afraid of something that awaits us after death if we are not rightly related to God before we die. Therefore, it must be the case, that those who have died physically are still conscious in their spirit, for the body may sleep in death, but not the spirit or soul.
In support of your position you have asserted that “it is like God stores a backup copy of a person’s character. In the resurrection, God returns the character to each and every one just as it was before death.”
I believe that logically and factually this is an utter denial of the Biblical doctrine of the bodily resurrection of the dead. It is a denial because you do not have a resurrection of the same person, but a copy of that person, not the original. It is a newly created or minted copy, not the original. It is a denial because your position requires the discontinuity of the person, a view contrary to what the Bible teaches about this subject. Your view does not teach the doctrine of the resurrection as it is taught in the Bible but introduces an idea foreign to Scripture.
Your view does conform to the materialist position in theology, a viewpoint incompatible with what the Bible teaches. This viewpoint has been developed historically as a form of rationalism, a rationalistic attempt to devise a humanly acceptable system of doctrine, marked frequently by the idea that the view is “reasonable” in the light of human standards of reason, fairness, judgment. It is kind of a made-up theology designed to match what we would do if we were God (totally contrary to Genesis 18:25). This position is utterly mistaken. God has told us what He thinks about this:
Paul brings up this same concept when he says:
I’m sure neither of us, nor anyone else, is capable of teaching God how he might better run the universe. But he has given us the opportunity to learn what he intends to do by recording it in his written Word, found in the Bible.
Rather than get caught up in the errors of man-made theology taught by individual teachers, denominations, religious movements, and false cults, we need to go directly to the Bible and study it on Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island unencumbered by denominational baggage, and learn the truth of what the Bible teaches by doing Real Bible Study.
On the contrary – this has been seen in persecution. You can kill the body, but not break the character. True followers of Christ being burned at the stake, and singing while it is happening. Their characters were not broken, their character not destroyed. And hell in Matther 10:28 is translated from the word, Gehenna, which literally means, “valley of Hinnom”, the garbage dump of Jerusalem. But this was also the place where the worship of Molech occurred with child sacrifices. The end result in both was death, non-existence.
Take Revelation 14:7, it says, fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement is come. FEAR – is used here not in the sense of being afraid of God, but in the sense of coming to Him with reverence and awe. It conveys the thought of absolute loyalty to God, of full surrender to His will. Read Deuteronomy 4:10 in this context. In the Old Testament, God repeated says what? DO NOT BE AFRAID. We have nothing to fear from God. The only thing we need to fear is God finally lets us have our way and he gives us up. Read Romans 1. Read Deuteronomy 32. Many places!!
I are implying that God needs to use the exact same pieces of matter in order to resurrect a person. There is no difference between one carbon 12 atom and another. During our lifetime, all the atoms in our bodies are changed out many times. Some tissues, this happens every few days. Others takes years. One estimate is that every 7 years ALL the atoms in our bodies will have been exchanges for new atoms. Have we changed? NO. It is not the individual particles of matter that make up our person. It is the arrangement of those atoms, the information contained in that arrangement that is important. DNA is an example of an information system which stores unique information about us. That is only a small part of the total information. All the neuronal connections that we form also define us. Our “character” is developed by our total experience. In the resurrection, we will be just as we went into the grave with respect to our thoughts, behavior, our character. Is the individual particles of matter important? No. The arrangement is what is important, and that is what God will preserve, our spirit as it were.
The Bible teaches us that God is Love (1 John 4). His character is described as this, long suffering, great in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, Numbers 14:18. He will not force Himself on us, for might and power are not His methods, even though He is infinite in might and power. Zec 4:6 AKJV This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, said the LORD of hosts.
What I find in the Bible is a God of Love, not a God of infinite torture. Yes, the punishment will be eternal, never ending, forever. But the Bible teaches total annihilation. The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. Sin, when it is full grown brings forth death, James 1:15. This is the natural consequences of sin. God wrath as explained in Romans 1, is when God lets us reap the natural consequence. Read Revelation 14! By the way Jerry, Revelation 14 is for you, now, and not just the Jews. Proof? Yes,Rev 14:6 AKJV And I saw another angel fly in the middle of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people… Every one, not just the Jews.
This is the Bible speaking. I have quoted only from the Bible. If you are afraid of God, I’m really sorry for you. God is Love, and worthy to be praised. He does not want to punish anyone. What he longs for is this, Luke 13:34 GNB “Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets, you stone the messengers God has sent you! How many times I wanted to put my arms around all your people, just as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would not let me! And that is the key!!! We will not let God in to heal us, to set us free, to save us. Salvation is healing, saving us from our sin (John 3:16,17) Matthew 1:21 AKJV And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. God is not the one destroying us, it is sin that does the destruction. God is the healer. Satan is the destroyer.
Dear A. Way,
You affirm that the Bible teaches annihilation of the person.
I affirm that the Bible does not teach annihilation of the person.
Do you know of any verses in the Bible that teach annihilation of the person in reference to a person’s destiny in the “age to come,” eternity future? Feel free to share them.
You state:
I find your statement most interesting. Have you any actual Biblical information that teaches this directly? For example, does the Bible give any hint about either how or where God preserves this information? And does the Bible in any context you know of use the word “spirit” in this sense?
Does this information constitute the person independent of their physical body or only as their physical body?
Does this information that forms the “spirit” have consciousness after the death of the physical body?
Is the body the whole man, the whole of man, or is there something else in addition to the body that constitutes the person?
You have brought up a fascinating subject indeed.
But for now, I must return to my project of expanding the cross references for Real Bible Study. I am about to start Ezekiel 28 today.
If you were to have your arm cut off, would “you” change? You would still have the same memories, thoughts, intelligence, “you”, your character does not need to change. Sure, it might change, you might become bitter that you lost an arm, but you do not have to change.
Now, instead of your arm, lets say we amputate the frontal lobes of your brain, called a frontal lobotomy or leucotomy . This has been done to people frequently in the 1940s and 50s. Do you change? You bet your change. Your personality changes, your behavior changes. What happened? Is your “spirit” the same? Is there an entity added to the human body separate from the human body? You say yes. I say, we are creatures, created by God. We were formed out of the dust of the ground, that is what we are made of. (Genesis 2:7) God breathed into man the breath of life, and man because a living soul (Genesis 2:7 continued). How exactly God created life, the Bible does not say. The soul, translated from the Hebrew word, nephesh, is the entire being. As a Hebrew Rabbi said, nephesh is the entired being, even the blood in his veins.
The spirit is the spark of life. That which makes us, a pile of dust, alive. The soul and the spirit form the total living being. When you die, the breath leaves the body, and you die, and the body returns to the dust. The word translated spirit, is Ruach, and if often translated wind, breath, and spirit. It denotes vitality (Judges 15:19), courage (Joshua 2:11), temper or anger (Judges 8:3), disposition (Isaiah 54:6), moral character (Ezekiel 11:19), and the seat of the emotions (1 Samuel 1:15). In one sense, the breath of man is the same as animal (Ecclesiastes 3:19). The ruach, the spirit leaves the body at death, and all thoughts perish, Psalms 146:4. Read that again, thoughts perish. No, there is no consciousness in death. At death, the spirit leaves the body and returns to God, (Ecclesiastes 12:7). We know from Psalms 146:4 that our thoughts perish, so what returns to God? Our spirit, our character, who we were. In the resurrection, we are raised back to life by God, and we will be the same as we went into the grave. Our characters will be the same. Never in the OT, with respect to man, does rûach denote an intelligent entity capable of sentient existence apart from a physical body.
In the NT, the spirit, the ruach, is the term pneuma, from which we get the term pneumonia. It is to breath, or to blow. The NT does not recognize an entity that exists apart from the body that is capable of consciousness. Pneuma denotes “mood,” “attitude,” or “state of feeling”, in such passages as Romans 8:15; 1 Corinthians 4:21; 2 Timothy 1:7; 1 John 4:6. It is also used of various aspects of the personality, as in Galatians 6:1; Romans 12:11; etc. As with rûach, the pneuma is yielded to the Lord at death (Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59).
In the OT, Ruach is used frequently of the Spirit of God, as in Isaiah 63:10. In the NT, pneuma is also used of the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:11; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 2:4; 1 Peter 1:12; 2 Peter 1:21; and others).
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Here are my references I quoted for those who do not want to take the time to look them up.
Genesis 2:7 AKJV And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Judges 15:19 AKJV But God split an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water out of there; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: why he called the name thereof Enhakkore, which is in Lehi to this day.
Joshua 2:11 AKJV And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
Judges 8:3 AKJV God has delivered into your hands the princes of Midian, Oreb and Zeeb: and what was I able to do in comparison of you? Then their anger was abated toward him, when he had said that.
Isaiah 54:6 AKJV For the LORD has called you as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when you were refused, said your God.
Ezekiel 11:19 AKJV And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
1 Samuel 1:15 AKJV And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 AKJV For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other; yes, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Psalms 146:4 AKJV His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 AKJV Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
Psalms 146:4 AKJV His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Romans 8:15 AKJV For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
1 Corinthians 4:21 AKJV What will you? shall I come to you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?
2 Timothy 1:7 AKJV For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
1 John 4:6 AKJV We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God hears not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Galatians 6:1 AKJV Brothers, if a man be overtaken in a fault, you which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering yourself, lest you also be tempted.
Romans 12:11 AKJV Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Luke 23:46 AKJV And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into your hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Acts 7:59 AKJV And they stoned Stephen, calling on God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Isaiah 63:10 AKJV But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
1 Corinthians 2:11 AKJV For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 AKJV But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ephesians 4:30 AKJV And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed to the day of redemption.
Hebrews 2:4 AKJV God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
1 Peter 1:12 AKJV To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to us they did minister the things, which are now reported to you by them that have preached the gospel to you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
2 Peter 1:21 AKJV For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Dear A. Way,
You have presented an interesting viewpoint, and an interesting set of Scriptures to support it.
By both repetition and the use of boldface emphasis, you have called particular attention to Psalm 146:4,
You indicate that you believe this verse teaches there is no conscious existence after death, for upon death, a person “returneth to his earth” and “in that very day his thoughts perish.”
I do not believe that Psalm 146:4 asserts what you think it means at all. In context the Psalmist is telling the reader to trust in God, and not to trust in human leadership, for when the local or current human leader dies, he no longer can carry out his plans. The “thoughts” have reference to the plans that individual had for things in this life, on this earth.
This is borne out by many of the modern English translations available today:
This should pretty well dispose of your mistaken interpretation and application of Psalm 146:4 as a prooftext for asserting that there is no consciousness after death, since that is not what the passage is speaking of in context, or in modern translations.
The problem I have with the viewpoint you eloquently express is that it simply is not the teaching of the Bible.
I realize that we both suffer from the limitations of the medium we are using to communicate to one another and all who read here our thoughts on these subjects. You no doubt have much more evidence you could marshal in support of your view. I have much more evidence I could marshal in support of my view.
When two good people, earnest students of Scripture, do not agree on an interpretation of the Bible in some matter, it is clear that both views being expressed are not equally correct. They could both be wrong. But if the views are contradictory, they cannot both be right.
This being the case, how can one find out what the true viewpoint based on Scripture really is?
I believe the way to determine Biblical truth is to interpret the Bible in full accordance with the Rules of Interpretation (I have posted 23 Rules in the October, 2010 Archives here). A mistaken view will always be in violation of one of the Rules of Interpretation, perhaps more.
I believe the error in your viewpoint is the error of reductionism. By that I mean, you have reduced the complexity of the evidence to a simpler form that unwittingly leaves out important and necessary information necessary to consider.
Given the evidence you present, you can reach your conclusion very neatly, so long as no one else comes along who knows better who furnishes the contrary evidence you have left unexplained and unaccounted for.
For example, you have referred to the nature of God. You have furnished very good verses that express the fact that God is a God of Love. From this you conclude that a God of Love could not possibly intend to punish anyone by means of fire and torment for all eternity. Therefore, you cannot believe in a god who would.
The God revealed in the Bible is the same God in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Since God cannot change, his character is constant and consistent. He is perfect, so He cannot change, for if he changed, he would either change for the better, which means he was not perfect to start, or He would change for the worse, which would mean loss of perfection He presently has. So I think we can agree that God cannot change His character or His attributes. The Bible states this very truth in both the Old and the New Testament.
I think you and I can probably agree on this point: the nature, character, or attributes of God are unchanging.
I think you have committed the reductionist error by taking into account a favorite and very true attribute of God, but neglecting the rest of the pertinent evidence that properly pertains to the argument.
Here are just a very few other texts of Scripture that need to be brought forward for consideration:
For this passage, for the modern reader the King James Version comes on somewhat stronger than the other translations cited do. The modern English versions no doubt capture, in this case, the intent of the original somewhat better.
In this case, all the translations pretty well express the same truth from Hebrews 10:30, 31.
Here again, all the translations cited for Hebrews 12:29 express the same thing.
What is expressed goes beyond a simple “God is Love” assertion.
More formally, when making assertions about just what principles God follows in his administration of justice, we must take full account of his attributes, not just the ones that fit our idea of what we think God ought to do.
You also are locked into your viewpoint. You see God as a vengeful God. A severe God. I see the whole of the Bible as God seeking to save. Yes, there are words that sound scary, much like a physician saying to a patient, you have a horrible disease but I can heal you, but you must come to me, and obey my voice. Matthew 23:37 GNT “Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets and stone the messengers God has sent you! How many times I wanted to put my arms around all your people, just as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would not let me!
Yes, God is a CONSUMING fire. The wicked are consumed by His glory. But the righteous? Isaiah 33:14-15 NKJV The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: “Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?” 15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil:
The dread that overtakes sinners when ushered into the presence of a righteous God is awful to imagine (Revelation 6:14-17). How much more terrible it will be to go through that experience!
God is, indeed, “merciful and gracious,” nevertheless He “will by no means clear the guilty” (Exodus 34:6-7). Those who despise God’s mercy should never forget that “whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap” (Galatians 6:7).
God’s wrath is described in Romans 1, and it says in that chapter, it “is being revealed”. What is God’s wrath in Romans 1? God gives them up, God lets them go. He wants to heal, but we would not let him ( see Matthew 23 quote above ).
You quoted Deuteronomy 32. This is an interesting chapter for a number of reasons. Read the following and see what really happens, God gives them up, lets them go – Romans 1 wrath.
You quoted 2 Corinthians 5:11. This fear is something far different from the terror that lost sinners will one day experience. Godly fear is the beginning of wisdom (Psalms 111:10; Proverbs 9:10). It is synonymous with profound reverence such as Isaiah felt when in God’s presence (Isaiah 6:5), and is based on a realization of the character, majesty, and greatness of God, and of one’s own unworthiness. It is the root and mainspring of true piety. It prevents conceit (Proverbs 26:12), and is a deterrent to sin (2 Chronicles 19:7; Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 28:28; Proverbs 8:13; Acts 5:5). It gives release from all other fears (Proverbs 14:26-27; Proverbs 19:23). He who stands in awe of God can be free of all anxiety. The fear of the Lord is reverent adoration and obedient respect for a loving heavenly Father (Psalms 103:11; Psalms 111:10). Also Psalms 19:9.
Psalms 146, yes of course there is more evidence, besides this verse which states that their thoughts perish at death. Psalms 115:17 AKJV The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. If a person goes to heaven at death, then why would their praise for LORD stop? Because they are dead and in the grave until the resurrection. You claim all have immortality. Only God is immortal. The righteous do not put on immortality until the resurrection. (1 Timothy 6:16; 1 Corinthians 15:52-3) How is it then the wicked are immortal?
————- quoted scripture —————–
Matthew 23:37 AKJV O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not!
Isaiah 33:14-15 AKJV The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? (15) He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;
Revelation 6:14-17 AKJV (14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Exodus 34:6-7 AKJV And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, (7) Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the children’s children, to the third and to the fourth generation.
Galatians 6:7 AKJV Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
2 Corinthians 5:11 AKJV (11) Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest to God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Psalms 111:10 AKJV The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endures for ever.
Proverbs 9:10 AKJV The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Isaiah 6:5 AKJV Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the middle of a people of unclean lips: for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Proverbs 26:12 AKJV See you a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
2 Chronicles 19:7 AKJV Why now let the fear of the LORD be on you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
Job 1:1 AKJV There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Job 1:8 AKJV And the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and eschews evil?
Job 28:28 AKJV And to man he said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.
Proverbs 8:13 AKJV The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the fraudulent mouth, do I hate.
Acts 5:5 AKJV And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Proverbs 14:26-27 AKJV In the fear of the LORD is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge. (27) The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Proverbs 19:23 AKJV The fear of the LORD tends to life: and he that has it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.
Psalms 103:11 AKJV For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psalms 111:10 AKJV The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endures for ever.
Psalms 19:9 AKJV The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psalms 146:4 His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Psalms 115:17 AKJV The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
1 Timothy 6:16 AKJV Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach to; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.
jerry i like your cross ref on the fear of the lord, i have been studying that in proverbs the last couple of days it blessed me. good points!
Ken – are you afraid of God?
mr way great question! what does that meant to “fear the lord”? pro 1/7 the fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge: “reverental awe”is the definition of fear in pro 1/3 we who fear god recognize him as the ultimate reality, and we respond to him. to fear god means to serve him only dt 6/13 it is expressed by walking in his ways,by loving him, and by serving him with all our heart and soul dt 10/12 job 1/1, psm 128/1. yes i do fear him by the grace of god and the power of the holy spirit. what characterizes the world today? rom 3/18 there is no fear of god before their eyes!!
I like your answer Ken. Now this question, are you afraid of God? Jerry warns us above that we should be afraid of God. If you do not “fear” Him, that is love and honor and worship Him, He will torture you in hell for ever and ever. Here is my paraphrase of this idea, and this is God speaking: “Love me, or I will torture you for eternity”. So Ken, are you afraid of God?
Here is what Jerry said:
Jerry’s “therefore”, is his interpretation. Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16 ), and is the source of life (Job 33:4), therefore, if there is consciousness in death (which then is not really death), then God must be doing something to keep one alive in order to torture them. This I do not find in the Bible.
mr way, i jn 4/9-10 i think answers your question and it is v9 in this was manifested the love of god toward us,because that god sent his only begotten son into the world, that we might live through him. mr way do you believe that man was born into this world dead in trespasses and sins,eph 2/1-3? what is the penalty for sin? rom 6/23 for the wages of sin is death; but the gift of god is eternal life through jesus christ our lord. mr way for us to see what the love of god is we must first see are sinners b4 god also heb 9/27 and as it is appointed unto men once to die and after this comes judgement. the good news is that god loves us and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.ii pe 3/9 he sent his son die on the cross for our sins rom 5/8 but demonstrates his own love toward us that while we were yet sinners christ died for us. i co 15/1-4 for i delievered unto first of all that which i also received, how that christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; v4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures; how do i appropriate the salvation he has provided? eph2/-8 by grace through faith. to reject gods provision through jesus christ is to face “the second death and the lake of fire” they are identical terms rev 20/14 and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. v15 and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. jn 8/21then said jesus again unto them, i go my way ,and ye shall die in sins; whither i go, ye cannot come, also look at jn 8/24 i said th4 unto you ,that ye shall die in your sins:for if ye are believe not that i am he, ye shall die in your sins. i think these scriptures out clearly what eternal damnation really means and that there is a literal hell. if you read in lk 16/19-31 hell is torment and men are fully conscious in hell. eph 2/4 but god, who is rich in mercy,for his great love wherewith he loved us,v5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickend us together in heavenly places in christ jesus: theres a great hymn that says” o the love that drew salvations plan o the love that brought down to man mercy there was great and grace was free there my burdened soul found liberty at calvary”!
There in only one quotation in all the you wrote Ken that suggests consciousness in death, and that is Luke 16:19-31. This story was a parable. In fact, Jesus ALWAYS taught in parables, Matthew 13:34 AKJV All these things spoke Jesus to the multitude in parables; and without a parable spoke he not to them:
If you know all the parables, then you know of only one parable where Jesus actually used a proper name, and it is this one about Lazarus. What later happened to Lazarus after this parable was told? Lazarus died. When Lazarus was raised from the dead, did he report anything about the place he was supposedly taken to at his death? No. When Lazarus died, he was DEAD. John 11:14 So He told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
In this parable Jesus continues the lesson set forth in the parable of the Dishonest Steward (Luke 16:1-12), that the use made of the opportunities of the present life determines future destiny (see Luke 16:1; Luke 16:4; Luke 16:9; Luke 16:11-12). That parable had been addressed particularly to the disciples (Luke 16:1), but in Luke 16:9 Jesus had turned from the disciples to the Pharisees present (Luke 16:9). The Pharisees refused to accept Jesus’ teachings on stewardship and sneered at Him (Luke 16:14). Jesus then pointed out that they might be honored by men, but that God read their hearts like an open book (Luke 16:15). They had had sufficient light; they had long enjoyed the instruction of “the law and the prophets,” and since the ministry of John the added light of the gospel had been theirs (Luke 16:16). In Luke 16:17-18 Jesus affirms that the principles set forth in “the law” are immutable-God has not changed-and gives an example of this sublime truth. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is then given to show that destiny is decided in this present life by the use made of its privileges and opportunities. In the first place, the “certain rich man” represents all men who make a wrong use of life’s opportunities, and, in a collective sense, it represents also the Jewish nation, which, like the rich man, was making a fatal mistake. The parable consists of two scenes, one representing this life (Luke 16:19-22), and another the next (Luke 16:23-31). The parable of the Dishonest Steward approached the problem from the positive point of view, that is, from the point of view of one who did make preparations for the future. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus approaches the same problem from the negative point of view, that is, from the point of view of one who failed to make such preparation. The rich man erred in thinking that salvation is based on Abrahamic descent rather than upon character (Ezekiel 18:1-32), Jerry take note.
Like all other parables, that of the Rich Man and Lazarus must be interpreted in harmony with its context and with the general tenor of Scripture. One of the most important principles of interpretation is that each parable was designed to teach one fundamental truth, and that the details of the parable need not necessarily have significance in themselves, except as “props” for the story. In other words, the details of a parable must not be pressed as having a literal meaning in terms of spiritual truth unless the context makes clear that such a meaning is intended. Out of this principle grows another-that it is not wise to use the details of a parable to teach doctrine. Only the fundamental teaching of a parable as clearly set forth in its context and confirmed by the general tenor of Scripture, together with details explained in the context itself, may legitimately be considered a basis for doctrine. The contention that Jesus intended this parable to teach that men, whether good or bad, receive their rewards at death violates both of these principles.
As clearly set forth in the context, this parable was designed to teach that future destiny is determined by the use men make of the opportunities of this present life. Jesus was not discussing either the state of man in death or the time when rewards will be passed out; He was simply drawing a clear distinction between this life and the next and showing the relationship of each to the other. Furthermore, to interpret this parable as teaching that men receive their rewards immediately at death clearly contradicts Jesus’ own declaration that “the Son of man shall … reward every man according to his works” when He “shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels” (Matthew 16:27; Matthew 25:31-41; compare with 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 22:12). It is one of the most important rules of interpretation that figurative expressions and narratives are to be understood in terms of the literal statements of Scripture concerning the truths referred to. Even those who attempt to force this parable into a pattern of interpretation that teaches contrary to the immediate context and to the general tenor of Christ’s teachings concede that many of the details of the parable are figurative (Luke 16:22-26).
It may then properly be asked, “Why would Jesus introduce into a parable figurative illustrations that do not accurately represent truth as clearly set forth elsewhere in the Scriptures, and particularly in His own literal statements?” The answer is that He was meeting people on their own ground. Many in the audience-without the least OT Scriptural reason for doing so-had come to believe in the doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection. This erroneous belief, which does not appear in the OT, pervades post-exilic Jewish literature in general, and like many other traditional beliefs, had become a part of Judaism by the time of Jesus (Mark 7:7-13). In this parable Jesus simply made use of a popular belief in order thereby to make forcibly clear an important lesson He sought to plant in the minds of His hearers. It may also be noted that in the preceding parable, that of the Dishonest Steward (Luke 16:1-12), Jesus neither commended nor approved of the dishonest steward’s course of action, although that action constitutes the main part of the story (Luke 16:8).
Even the modernist International Critical Commentary comments as follows on Luke 16:22 : “The general principle is maintained that bliss and misery after death are determined by conduct previous to death; but the details of the picture are taken from Jewish beliefs as to the condition of souls in Sheol, and must not be understood as confirming those beliefs.”
mr way my post was supposed to point that ones acceptance or rejection of jesus christ as saviour and lord determines where one will spend eternity. jn 3/14-18, jn 3/36 he that believeth on the son hath everlasting life: everlasting life: and he that believeth not the son shall not see life; but the wrath of god abideth on him. death is a reality of every member of the human race heb 9/27. when the bible speaks of death, it refers to the physical death of the body,not the soul. the body may die,but the soul,the life principle of man lives on mt 10/28,lk 12/4-5.death however, should not understood as annihilation. life continues on for believer and unbeliever after the death of the body. lk 16/19-31 like i stated graphically describes the contined existence of both lazarus and the rich man after death. lazarus,the poor beggar,continued in eternal bliss, described as “abrahams bosom”lk 16/22, while the rich man was in eternal torment in hades lk 16/23. for the believer,death means to “be absent from the body and to be at home with lord”ii cor 5/8. paul desired death so that he might”be with christ”ph 1/23. eternal punishment is clearly taught in the bible. the book of revelation describes the state of the condemned. they are in a”fiery lake of burning sulfur”19/20,20/10. a “lake of fire”20/14-15, where “they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever”. mr way the scriptures are very clear on eternal punishemnt. the scripture views each human being as a person with and eternal destiny. lk 19/10 for the son of man is come to seek and save that which was lost.
I think you have completely missed the point about Luke 16 and the parable. The point being make was as said in the last sentence, if you do not believe Moses and the Prophets, you would not believe someone, ever IF they came back from the dead. Did you read my post above? Have you no answer?
There is no soul separate form the whole. The soul, the “nephesh” in the OT, is the whole person, even the blood in their veins. Yes, we develop a character, our spirit. That God will return to us in the resurrection. If we kept on living after death in a conscious state without the body, then what is the point of the resurrection? If we go to heaven when we die, then what is the point of Jesus bringing His reward with Him at the second coming, Revelation 22:12.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The righteous will have eternal life. But you and Jerry say the wicked will have eternal life. No, the sinner is destroyed. Speaking of the destruction of Satan (and the wicked), Ezekiel 28:18-19 NRSV By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever.
Jerry says that we need to fear God because of the punishment that will come. Please explain this view in light of the fact that it is the kindness of God that draws us to repentance? Romans 2:4 NRSV Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
What is this fire that consumes? Romans 12:20 NRSV No, “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.” Who lives in the fire? Isaiah 33:14-16 NRSV The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: “Who among us can live with the devouring fire? Who among us can live with everlasting flames?” 15 Those who walk righteously and speak uprightly, who despise the gain of oppression, who wave away a bribe instead of accepting it, who stop their ears from hearing of bloodshed and shut their eyes from looking on evil, 16 they will live on the heights; their refuge will be the fortresses of rocks; their food will be supplied, their water assured.
The place I want to go and be is in the place of the eternal burnings which is in the presence of God. But that presence will be a consuming fire to the sinner. Salvation is healing, the removal of sin. That is what I pray for from God. Yes, the wicked will be destroyed. They will perish, they will be consumed, and ever more shall they be. Does God kill them? No, it is their own choice which has placed them out of harmony with God. The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23) Sin when full grown bring forth death, James 1:15. But you and Jerry say we never die, but going on living and being tortured by the only one that gives life which is Jesus, Act 17:25.
What kind of God is it that would torture those that refuse to love Him for eternity? “Love me, or I’ll torture you in hell for eternity”. That is not my God and that is not the God I read about in the Bible. Yes, the punishment that will experience will be eternal, because they will never live again. They will be dead. There is no natural immortality of the soul, and there is no eternal torment of the wicked.
mr way evangelicals agree that the souls of all men will live forever in resurrected bodies in either heaven or hell. unbelievers will continue in an eternal state of torment. the expression “weeping and gnashing of teeth”mt 8/12,13/42,50,lk13/28 suggests both suffering and despair,implying a continued existence of suffering. again as i mentioned the account of lazarus and the rich man in lk 16/19-31 stresses eternal punishment. i thess 5/23 spirit and the very god of peace sanctify you wholly; and i pray god your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our lord jesus christ. this is clear teaching of the distinction of body,soul,and spirit. also remember what john said in i jn 4/10 niv says”this is love: not that we loved god,but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. we love the lord because what he did for us on the cross in providing for our salvation. this is why i can sing”my hope is built on nothing less than jesus blood and righteousness; i dare not trust th sweetest frame,but wholly lean on jesus name. on christ the solid rock i stand all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand.”
Ken – wake up! Evangelicals do NOT agree that people suffer in hell consciously for eternity. Yes, it is the majority opinion. But there are many who do not believe this false teaching. Here is an article from the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, JETS: http://www.edwardfudge.com/JETS_final_end_wicked.pdf. Here is a snippet:
And there is MUCH more.
Concerning Luke 16:19-31, you have not addressed what I wrote. You assume that what is written is fact, when what Jesus was doing was meeting people where they were. This story is a parable. It had a point. What was the point? That “Father Abraham” presides over hell? (Luke 16:24). Do disembodied souls have fingers and tongues? (Luke 16:24). But the main point of the story is at the end. Jesus said, Luke 16:31 KJV And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
The OT only speaks of annihilation. Will you not hear what Moses and the prophets say?
mr way appreciate your points. i think it is a good point on what evangelicals say, but the most important is what gods word says. ii tim 3/16-17 thats the final authority.lk 16/23-24 vs 23 hades, is used to indicate the condition of the unsaved between death and the great white throne judgement rev 20/11-15. my focal passage lke 16/23-24 shows that the lost in hades are conscious,possess full use of their faculties, memory and are in torment. this continues until the final judgment of the lost iipe2/9 when all the unsaved,and hades itself will be cast in the lake of fire rev 20/13-15. i think it very clear what the scriptures teach about a literal heaven and hell. the most important question that man has to answer today is mt 16/13-16 who do men say that i,the son man,am? v14 and they said,some say that thou art john the baptist;some,elijah;and others,jeremiah,or one of the prophets. v15 he saith unto them, but who say,ye that i am ? vs16 and simon peter answered and said,thou art the christ,the son of the living god. the answer to that question determines where one will spend in eternity.
Luke 16 tells us nothing about the current condition of the wicked or the righteous. Luke 16 is a parable, that met the hearers where they were. THE point of this parable is that the scriptures, the OT, Moses and the Prophets MUST be read and understood. That is the point, the whole point. Jerry, are you listening, because God’s Law in OT, and is unchangeable. Revelation 20:13 – death and hell (hades) = the grave. Period.
Yes, Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus is God. If we have seen Jesus, we have seen the Father, John 14:9. Did Jesus torture anyone? No. Jesus is an exact representation of God, Heb 1:3. God is just like Jesus. For you to say that God will torture people in hell for eternity does not describe God and that it NOT what the Bible teaches. But, you are free to believe a lie: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 ESV Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false…
Come out of Babylon Ken.
Dear Brother A. Way,
Mr. Fudge hardly represents the viewpoint of any genuinely evangelical scholar.
Here buried under other papers on the desk behind me I have a printout of one of his articles too which I have carefully studied in the past.
His and your viewpoint have been well answered by other scholarly writers. I have likewise answered your viewpoint, literally point by point, in past posts here throughout the site where ever you have posted.
I have already thoroughly taken away Psalm 146:4 from you by clearly expounding its meaning in context as well as by providing a number of other English translations which clarify the verse.
Once a trusted leader has died, his plans perish, for he is no longer in the land of the living to carry them out. The verse in context says nothing about the condition of the soul or spirit upon the death of the body.
Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament teaches the theological materialism you believe in. You most likely would never come to this viewpoint yourself by independent reading of the Bible alone in a plain text format, even if you used the other resources I have repeatedly named that are permitted on Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island, permitted because they are unbiased, unbiased because they were not written or designed to favor a particular religious denomination. I believe no one can come to the viewpoint you believe unless they are carefully taught by a denomination or its literature which holds this view.
But I most appreciate your willingness to share your viewpoint here, and the evidence you believe supports it. It helps motivate my careful study and re-study of the Bible. I am currently studying Psalm 115:17 in greater depth because of your interesting reference to it.
The Hebrew word underlying “silence” is used only one other time, at Psalm 94:17,
Considering the larger context of devout Hebrew thought reflected elsewhere in the Psalms, the “silence” spoken of is not the silence in the “next life,” or after death in the “next world,” but the “silence” of the believer, whose voice and witness to his children and grandchildren, and those about him, who can no longer benefit from his witness to God’s Word.
This is seen in Psalm 78:1-8,
Notice the importance the Psalmist places upon obedience to the directive in God’s written law found in Deuteronomy to pass on God’s Word to our children by constantly talking of it to them. But once a person dies, he can no longer be heard by those once about him, for he cannot offer praise and testimony to them of what God has done.
This is reflected again in the Psalms at Psalm 51:12-15,
This is in line with what is declared in the preceding Psalm,
David knew in his heart that until he was fully assured in his heart of God’s forgiveness of the great sin he was confessing in this very Psalm, he could not testify to others of his faith in God, and show forth his praise.
Now as for Luke 16, many scholars believe it is NOT a parable. You yourself in a comment above happened to mention how this parable is different from all the other parables Jesus gave: it contains the name of a specific individual, and details about another individual not specifically named, but described as rich. Jesus said at Luke 16:19, the opening verse of this alleged parable:
Now the question to me is, when Jesus stated “There was a certain rich man,” was Jesus speaking literal truth, that there really was such a person, or is he making up a story to teach a point, but that there really never was such a person?
Jesus said next, at Luke 16:20,
Now, as I read, Jesus said “And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus.” The way Jesus spoke, I take it literally that he is speaking of actual not fictitious persons.
By the way, there surely is no connection beyond the name “Lazarus” to suppose that the Lazarus in this teaching Jesus gave has any relation to the “Lazarus” that was so beloved of Jesus.
Many parables are introduced with the expression, “Now he spake a parable to this end…” or similar words, but this passage in Luke 16 is not so introduced, another piece of evidence from the text that leads many scholars, and myself, to believe that this is not merely a parable.
Another point I must make about the proper interpretation of parables. Many scholars, especially liberal and modernistic ones (such as George Buttrick both in his separate work on parables and his work in the Interpreter’s Bible), claim that one must not take the specific details of a parable into account when interpreting them, because a parable, supposedly, has just one main emphasis, so the details of the imagery within the parable must not be pressed in the interpretation.
That is flat-out error, far as I am concerned. Every word of God is significant, including every detail in a parable. It is not there simply as so much background detail to lend coloring to what is being said. I base my opinion upon long personal study of every verse and clause and word of every parable throughout the Bible as I’ve worked through the cross references given for them in The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, and the additional cross references I have supplied in my two reference volumes of cross references, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge and Nelson’s Cross Reference Guide to the Bible.
Some would take a comparative religions approach to the interpretation of this specific “parable” about the rich man and Lazarus, and find material in Jewish lore and fable that is similar. The editor of the Companion Bible in some of his other writings goes into this matter in some detail, for he is a materialist in his theology, and agrees with your position wholeheartedly. So while I greatly respect his work and study of the Bible, on this area of Bible study and Bible doctrine he is sadly very mistaken. Other sources similarly explain away the implications of the story of the rich man and Lazarus. I’ve read the explanations offered by the Watchtower Society, for example, and find them totally unsatisfactory.
We must not attempt to explain away the “literal truth” of what Jesus teaches to satisfy our mistaken notions of the character and attributes of God. Jesus himself told his disciples in another context, “If it were not so, I would have told you” (John 14:2),
The point I am making is that it is an egregious error to affirm that when Jesus spoke, he did not mean what he said. He never “accommodated” what he taught to a mistaken or conventional viewpoint, as liberal scholars and many others affirm.
Jesus would not use a story with mistaken imagery and details to make a main point. If there is no consciousness after death, Jesus would hardly have told of an event that in its literal meaning and interpretation clearly affirms that there is. Such would surely mislead both his contemporary listeners on the scene, and those ever after who would read the written account. If the details of the story lead to a wrong conclusion about what Jesus believed and taught, he surely would somewhere in his teaching have offered an explicit correction to any such mistaken inferences that might be drawn. But he did not.
On the contrary, Jesus criticized the view of the Sadducees most specifically. The Apostle Paul took the side of the Pharisees in doctrinal belief (Acts 23:6), and so did Luke in his testimony (Acts 23:8), not the side of the Sadducees.
This hardly was a mere ruse on the part of Paul to disrupt the council, as I’ve seen some materialists affirm. This would have been as unworthy of Paul as it would be unworthy of our Lord Jesus Christ to suggest that He did not teach the literal truth in Luke 16:19-31 about the intermediate state of life after the death of the physical body.
Paul said he was a Pharisee; Luke affirms of belief in both the resurrection and belief in angel and spirit, that the Pharisees confess both. Luke and Paul on this point of doctrine therefore are in agreement with the belief of the Pharisees, with which informed Christians agree in doctrine on this issue of the doctrine of conscious existence after death, for it is clearly the teaching of Scripture.
The Sadducees were materialist in their theology, and Jesus roundly criticized them, declaring they were wrong, and that they knew not the Scriptures, neither the power of God (Mark 12:24),
Again, Jesus repeated this charge against the Sadducees when he said:
Jesus, therefore, declared that the Sadducees were in great error on this point. What was their error? It was two-fold: (1) they denied the future bodily resurrection of the dead; (2) they denied that those who have died are presently alive or conscious.
I fully recognize that you are not in error regarding point (1), for you believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead.
But you are in great error regarding point (2), for you deny, as the Sadducees Jesus criticized denied, that there is continuing consciousness of the person after death.
Jesus said that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, proven when God spoke to Moses in the burning bush (which burned yet was not consumed, something materialists fail to properly notice) and affirmed, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” (Mark 12:26). Notice God did NOT say “I was the God of Abraham.” If he had said that, then we could justly conclude that Abraham was dead and not in any sense living at the time God made the affirmation to Moses, or at the time Jesus spoke.
But Jesus said, “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.” The Sadducees were in great error because they taught that Abraham was in no sense then living. That Abraham was then still living is clearly what Jesus affirmed. This proves that Abraham was conscious, not unconscious, after the death of his physical body.
Jesus extended this truth beyond direct reference to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, for Jesus further said, as recorded by Luke, “for all live unto him” (Luke 20:38),
That statement clearly teaches that all who die physically remain fully conscious after death, for one could hardly be said to “live” if they remained permanently unconscious until the day of resurrection.
Now this dovetails precisely with all else Jesus said that touches on these matters. I’ll give an example or two:
Note what Jesus affirmed:
(1) It is possible to kill the body;
(2) We are not to fear those who can kill the body;
(3) Those who can kill the body cannot kill the soul;
(4) The soul in this sense therefore refers to the immaterial part of man that is not extinguished when the body is killed; it does not and cannot refer to a person’s “character,” as materialists try to affirm, for one’s character cannot be cast into hell, but Jesus said the soul can be so cast by God in the parallel passage at Luke 12:4, 5:
(5) Luke records what man cannot do: Jesus stated though men can kill the body, “after that [they] have no more that they can do.” If “soul” in Matthew 10:28 has reference to character, surely man can destroy character by defamation, but Jesus said after the death of the body there is nothing else that those who are able to kill the body can do. This surely proves, therefore, that “soul” can have no reference to “character” in Matthew 10:28.
(6) That man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul proves that the soul is a separate and distinct entity or constituent part of man and is not the body, an entity in man fully conscious which continues after the death of the physical body.
(7) Jesus taught us to “rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28);
There has been some discussion about whether we are to fear God, and if so, in what sense. The Greek word for fear is Strong Number G5399:
For the unbeliever, they have cause to fear God in the sense of being very afraid or alarmed; when used of the believer, the believer will respect, revere, or reverence God. Both Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4, 5 are given as warning, so the term must mean be afraid or alarmed in these contexts.
(8) Jesus said God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. “Hell,” in this case, therefore, hardly means the grave, for God can cast both into hell, but He does not cast soul and body into the grave. “Body” must have the meaning of the spiritual body spoken of by Paul (1 Corinthians 15:44 and possibly 2 Corinthians 5:1), for the literal physical body of man is never said to be cast into Hell except in some very heightened imagery in poetry found in such a passage as Ezekiel 32, a passage I just completed furnishing extensive additional cross references just yesterday. But before the resurrection it is likely that when souls are cast into hell, since they can be recognized as persons, can speak, can recognize each other, can remember the past, they must have some temporary form that makes them recognizable, a “spiritual body,” until the day of resurrection when both the righteous and the unrighteous, though at separate times separated by 1000 years, will receive the imperishable resurrection body.
(9) Though Scripture states, and Jesus said, that God can destroy both soul and body in hell, “destroy” DOES NOT mean “kill”; “destroy” DOES NOT mean “annihilate.” The Greek word underlying our English word “destroy” NEVER means “annihilate.” There are no words in either the Hebrew text of the Old Testament or the Greek text of the New Testament which ever mean “annihilate” when speaking of the condition of persons AFTER they have died physically. That is to say, “annihilation” as a concept or word is never applied in Scripture to the state of men after death, the state often spoken of as the “intermediate state.”
(10) The underlying Greek word rendered “destroy,” transliterated into English apollumi (Strong Number G622) means to render unsuitable for the purpose originally intended. It is used when Jesus spoke the parable of the “lost coin,” where surely “lost” does not mean “annihilate.” Jesus said he came to seek and to save those who are lost (Luke 19:10), and surely he is speaking of individuals very much physically alive, though spiritually dead, where “lost” cannot mean “annihilate.” Jesus spoke of placing new wine in new wineskins, otherwise if new wine is placed in an old wineskin the wineskin will burst, or be marred, and therefore not suited to the use it was intended, but surely not “annihilated” (Mark 2:22).
Again, to furnish a second example from the teaching of Christ, Jesus promised the repentant thief on the cross, “Today thou shalt be with me in paradise.” This means that very day, the day that both the thief and our Lord Jesus Christ died, the thief would be with Christ in Paradise, obviously fully conscious, or he would never know the experience of being with Christ in paradise that very day. Attempts to re-punctuate the sentence in Luke 23:43 are just so much nonsense, and fly in the face of Greek grammar and syntax, as I explained in some detail in another main post here.
These lines of evidence fully prove that the soul is fully conscious upon the death of the body, according to the teaching of Scripture.
To bring in Genesis 2:17 and Genesis 3:4 and 1 Timothy 6:16 demonstrates that those who appeal to these texts to deny the fact that the soul or spirit continues conscious after the physical death of the body are twisting Scripture to fit their flawed materialist theory. They are not teaching the truth of God as it is revealed in his written Word, the Bible.
Jerry said:
You make me laugh!!! LOL
Bible scholars and theologians on Fudge’s book.
JOHN STOTT, London, England, U.K.: Tentatively holds to the view set forth in this book.
GREGORY A. BOYD, Bethel College, St. Paul, Minnesota: “The most thorough and compelling exposition of the biblical basis of annihilationism.”
COLIN BROWN, Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, Calif.: “A very strong case for rethinking the notion of the eternal torment of all the lost.”
F.F. BRUCE (Deceased), University of Manchester, England: “While this subject is one on which there is no unanimity among evangelical Christians, it is at the same time one on which they have often engaged in fierce polemic. What is called for, rather, is the fellowship of patient Bible study, the fruit of which Mr. Fudge presents here.”
JASON GORONCY, Knox Center for Ministry and Leadership, Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand: “Regardless of whether one is persuaded by Fudge’s thesis or not, the patient tone and methodology employed in The Fire That Consumes provides an all-too rare positive example of how such theological conversation might occur. Would that more debates about eschatological matters were conducted with such care and reverence.”
JOHN W. WENHAM (Deceased), Oxford, England: “The author is biblical, reverent and fair, showing soundness and independence of judgment. He makes his main points with force and persuasiveness.”
CLARK H. PINNOCK, (Retired), McMaster Divinity College, Hamilton, Ontario: “I know of no book which answers this powerful case.”
W. WARD GASQUE, Eastern College, Philadelphia: “An important and thought-provoking book that gives careful attention to the actual words of Scripture.”
DALE MOODY (Deceased), The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Ky: “I know of no biblical passage which, interpreted rightly and in context, conflicts with the conclusions of this book.”
THOMAS H. OLBRICHT (Retired), Pepperdine University, Malibu, Calif: “Evidence for the common assumption that the wicked will suffer eternal conscious torment may not be as conclusive as assumed.”
SAMUELE BACCHIOCCHE (Deceased), Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Mich: “A comprehensive response to all the texts and arguments used to defend the traditional view of the eternal punishment of the wicked.”
JOHN F. WALVOORD (Retired), Dallas Theological Seminary: “The most extensive study [of the subject] in recent years . . . commendably brings into the discussion many items that are often overlooked.” (Dr. Walvoord expressly disagrees with the conclusions of this book.)
GEORGE LEONARD GOSS, former editor, Evangelical Book Club: “A thorough and convincing exposition.”
Forward to the 3rd edition is by an Evangelical scholar, whose final paragraph of his introduction reads: “I commend this book warmly. It is likely to remain a standard work to which everyone engaged with this issue will constantly return. Richard Bauckham
Cambridge, England, 2011”
Are any of these people genuine enough?????
Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable? I was waiting to see if you would make such a claim. I admit, I’m astonished that you actually did!
Mark 4:33-34 ESV With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it. 34 He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.
Oops. Jesus always taught in parables. Christ did not speak in parables in order to conceal truth, but in order to reveal it. But you might say that Mark was only referring to this one occasion. OK, but you claim the introduction was missing, that Jesus does not state that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, at least apparently in so far as Luke’s account goes (although there is one ancient manuscript does call it a parable ), whereas, elsewhere parables are usually so labeled (Matthew 13:3; Matthew 13:24; Matthew 13:33; Matthew 13:44-45; Matthew 13:47). But it should be pointed out that although Jesus usually introduced a parable either by stating that it was a parable or by saying that the kingdom of heaven was like a person or a thing in the specific circumstances He then proceeded to relate, He did not always do so (see Luke 15:8; Luke 15:11; Luke 16:1 for examples). The same is true of various OT parables such as those of Judges 9:8-15 and 2 Kings 14:9, yet no one professes to believe that because these parables are not clearly labeled as such they are to be taken literally. The fallacy of such an argument is rendered obvious by a mere reading of the few references cited.
In this “rich man” Jesus undoubtedly intended the Pharisees to see themselves, and in the unhappy experience of the “rich man” to picture their own hapless fate (Luke 16:14). Compare this “rich man” with the one of the preceding parable (Luke 16:1).
Psalm 146:4 – your view only works if you have your view. It works just fine in my understanding of the text. The text says, their plan perish. You say, no, not really, only in this world. The simple reading of the text is clear.
Psalms 115:17; Psalms 94:17, same.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
But Jerry – you deny “destroy”. To you, the soul is not destroyed. Sorry – it does not fit. Hell – gehenna, the garbage dump, the grave. Yes, our God is a consuming fire, Hebrews 12:29. He will destroy sin. If you cling to sin and refuse His healing (SALVATION), you will be consumed along with it. CONSUMED – gone, annihilated. But perhaps you think sin will not be consumed? I sure hope not. Because one of the goals of Christ’ mission was to destroy the works of the devil, sin. 1 John 3:8 ESV Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
Mark 12:26-27 ESV And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”
Jerry – you have ignored the context, thus come to the wrong conclusion. What was the claim of the Sadducee? That there was no resurrection. Is Abraham dead? No question. Genesis 25:8 ESV Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. Isaac? Jacob. Dead. BUT – they will live again. They have passed from death to life, 1 John 3:14 NRSV We know that we have passed from death to life because we love one another. Whoever does not love abides in death. 1 John 5:11-12 NRSV And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (12) Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. So are they living now, and have already passed the judgment? No. Physical death, and loss of consciousness between death and the resurrection does not deprive the righteous of the gift of life. But here is the proof: Mark 12:26 ESV And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? The question is not about the current state of the dead – who are dead, no consciousness, the question is if they will be raised, that there is a resurrection. THAT is the question, and that is a fact. An additional fact, the dead have not yet received the promise of resurrection. Hebrews 9:15 ESV Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
The dead have no thoughts, they “sleep” in the grave until the resurrection. The interesting thing to me is that if people are still alive, why then do we need a resurrection? Is the body more liberating? Of course there is no scripture for such a thought. Eternal life is a promise, that is yet to be fulfilled, but it will. Jesus has risen.
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol’-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: – destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Genesis 2:17 NRSV but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” Who is speaking? The devil. John 8:44 ESV You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Don’t fall for the devils lies. Don’t exchange the truth about God for a lie, Romans 1:25.
Dear A. Way,
You ask,
Some of them are dead, so I can no longer debate them. But all of them would be welcome to come visit here and join the discussion verse by verse.
The only person on the list I know personally is Mr. Leonard Goss. I took his place as editor at Mott Media (home of the Evangelical Book Club) when he went on to serve as editor at Zondervan. He is knowledgeable about the Scriptures, but could I have a discussion with him now, I’m sure I could convince him to agree with me. That he endorses the book in some measure does not indicate he believes the conclusions of Mr. Fudge.
Dr. JOHN F. WALVOORD agrees with me, and disagrees with the book by Mr. Fudge.
CLARK H. PINNOCK started out a thorough-going Evangelical, but over the years he has strikingly changed his position, more recently very much for the worse. I do not consider him to represent the Bible believing Christian position on these Adventist issues regarding annihilation and the doctrine of eternal punishment.
F.F. BRUCE obviously, as do some others you cite, commends the book for its spirit, not the correctness of its content.
JOHN STOTT says he tentatively holds this view. He is not totally persuaded. I think he needs to go back and do some Real Bible Study, as respectable a scholar and writer as he may be.
Good men differ on Bible doctrines, especially those doctrines considered by most to be at the periphery of faith, not central to faith. On these side issues good men may differ, but that does not at all mean that all views are true.
Clearly, the historic Adventist view has been thoroughly answered from the Scriptures by such writers as F. W. Grant and Reverend D. B. Byers in the nineteenth century.
I personally consider the historic Adventist/Annihilationist view to be in absolute error, for it is NOT the teaching of the Bible.
Dear A. Way,
You state:
If you can in good conscience make statements like these, you are clearly at the right place when you visit this site, where such comments are most welcome. Here, though, I encourage everyone to engage in Real Bible Study to learn, as needed, corrective truth.
(1) When you claim “The dead have no thoughts, they “sleep” in the grave until the resurrection,” you commit the logical error of assuming what is to be proven. You also fail to learn from what has been posted by way of Biblical answer to your mistaken position, for I have shown and proven that Psalm 146:4 says nothing about thoughts going on after death, but in context has reference only to plans in this life that cannot be carried out by the person who has died physically. You commit the Biblical interpretation error of failing to recognize that the Bible teaches us that bodies sleep in the grave, but souls do not.
(2) You ask, “if people are still alive, why then do we need a resurrection?” I answer, because God said so. That is what is clearly taught in the Bible, Old Testament and New. It is the part of the mistaken Rationalist and rationalistic theology which would bring any doubt to the plain declaration of Scripture on such a point. That is the error of the Sadducees that Jesus severely criticized and condemned. Sadducees did NOT believe in “spirit,” that is, they did not believe that man has an individual spirit which continues in a conscious state after death, contrary to the teaching of the Bible. The Sadducees needed in their day to engage in Real Bible Study, as Jesus plainly told them when He said that they did not know the Scriptures, nor the power of God, and that they were in great error. Those who believe in the mistaken doctrine of Annihilationism today are the modern counterpart of the ancient Sadducees condemned by Jesus. In Scripture, bodies die and are buried, souls or spirits do not die physically. The Bible clearly uses the word “die” in two senses, physical death, and spiritual death. The body dies physically, the soul or spirit does not die physically, though it may surely die spiritually.
(3) You next state: “Is the body more liberating? Of course there is no scripture for such a thought.” I think your thought here is unclear. It may be a straw-man argument. All I have claimed in my posts have been backed by thorough presentation and exegesis of Scripture, more here on this site than you are likely to be able to find anywhere else in print or on line relating directly to these issues. God highly regards the body. He created it. Paul speaks in 2 Corinthians 5:1 of the state of the soul or spirit after death as a state of being “clothed upon with our house from heaven,” the term “house” like the term “house of this tabernacle” having reference to first our present earthly body which will perish, compared to another body with which we are clothed with our “house from heaven” lest, says Paul, “we shall be found naked,” awaiting the final physical bodily resurrection of our once mortal bodies fully renewed to be like “his glorious body” (Philippians 3:21).
(4) Your final statement in the cited paragraph: “Eternal life is a promise, that is yet to be fulfilled, but it will. Jesus has risen.” Your statement seems to be true, but it is lacking. Eternal life is not merely a promise, it is a present possession of all who truly believe in and on our Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Unlike what the Roman Catholics and on this point their fellow errorists the Adventists teach, we don’t have to wait until we die to learn whether we have eternal life or not. The Bible teaches most emphatically that true believers have eternal life now:
There is no ambiguity here in the English or the underlying Greek text: Jesus said we now “have,” not “may have,” not “will have,” but as a present possession we now have eternal life if we meet the stated conditions given, namely, that we continue believing (the force of the present tense), and continue hearing.
Again, the same truth is taught in 1 John 5:13,
Here again, “know” is in the present tense in Greek and English, as is “have.” Furthermore, the underlying Greek word for “know” indicates we have full, intuitive knowledge of this fact, knowledge that cannot in itself be improved upon, if we are among those John is addressing: those that believe on the name of the Son of God.
If we don’t have this present assurance, we need to seek the Lord until we do. Lack of assurance may be the result of lack of correct teaching, or correct learning from engaging in Real Bible Study. Lack of assurance may be the result of false teaching, in which case those who follow false teaching likely have no basis in true faith that would result in full assurance. Unfortunately it may also be the result of not truly having been saved in the first place.
The main argument is that you claim ALL have eternal life. It is not something to be gained. Either you have eternal life with God, or tortured by God in hell. But all have eternal life. That I do not find in the Bible. Only those who work with God to allow Him to heal (salvage, salvation) will be saved. Saved from what? You say, eternal torment by God. The Bible says total destruction, annihilation. Ezekiel 28:18-19 ESV By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever.”
mr way the only to heaven is through jesus christ jn 14/6. jn 5/24 says verily,verily, i say unto you ,he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me,hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. mr way have you trusted jesus christ as your personal saviour?
Ken, “this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” John 17:3 ESV Saving knowledge is centered upon the “true God,” in contrast with false gods, and upon Jesus Christ. Men will be rejected in the last day because they have rejected the essential knowledge. “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. ” Hosea 4:6 ESV. Israel went into captivity because of lack of knowledge, Isaiah 5:13 ESV Therefore my people go into exile for lack of knowledge; their honored men go hungry, and their multitude is parched with thirst.
Sin is folly. Those who engage in sin show themselves not to be wise, but foolish. Sin pays wages, not of prosperity, peace, and honor, but of ignominy, woe, and death. He who chooses sin, chooses death. Clearly and repeatedly God had pointed out what the results of transgression would be. Israel and Judah were “destroyed for lack of knowledge,” because they had “rejected knowledge”. John 17:17 ESV Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
John 8:32 ESV and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
The word “gospel” means “good news”. Jesus, before he had chosen any disciples, was preaching the Good News. To many, the “Good News” is that Jesus died for our sins. Is this what Jesus was saying even before choosing disciples? Or was he proclaiming the truth about God? The truth is that God is not a vengeful, unforgiving, exacting and severe. Oh yes, the sinner will perish, but they choose death instead of life. God, the origin of all life, does not preserve the life of a sinner in order to torture them for eternity. Mark 1:14-15 ESV Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
The word repent, mean to think differently, reconsider, change your mind.
This is a good recommendation Ken, REPENT, and BELIEVE the GOOD NEWS.
mr way there are some points in what you say, but you still have not answered the question that one has to answer. have you believed in jesus christ as your lord and saviour? your point about knowledge in jn 17/3 is the result of believing jesus christ and receiving eternal life. head knowledge,intellectual assent will not save you, i jn 5/11-12 and this is the record,that god hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in his son.vs 12 he that hath the son hath life,and he that hath not the son of god hath not life. one either has the son of god or he doesnt. faith is committing your whole person to jesus christ. jn 11/25 jesus said unto her, i am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me,though he were dead,yet he shall live. what do you need to do to have eternal life? simply believe in jesus christ take him at his word. vs 26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. believest thou this? again the emphasis on “believe” . have you done that mr way? . jn 14/6 i am the way,the truth,and the life and no man cometh to the father but by me?
Ken – Matthew 7:21 AKJV Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
The doing does not in itself save us. It is Jesus that saves us. But there is “doing” that can destroy us, by willful rejection of the commandments of God, (sin is transgression of the law) we can destroy ourselves. Sin, when full grown, brings forth death, James 1:15. Joshua 24:15 ESV And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Ken, consider this: John 3:16 NRSV “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
If you believe in eternal conscious torment, then this verse is a lie, for it says that only those that believe in Jesus as LORD, will have eternal life. The wick perish, they do not continue to live, in any form. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, John 14:6. How can you then say, the wicked continue to have life?
mr way your interptation of this jn 3/16 isnt correct. this is a simple promise to anyone who believes in jesus christ the son of god. he says you believe in jesus christ and you have eternal life. if you dont believe you perish. jn 20/31 jn states the purpose of the book of john.vs 31 but these are written,that ye might believe that jesus is the christ,the son of god; and that believing ye might have life through his name.. jn 6/47 verily,verily,i say unto you, he that believeth on me hath eternal life. jn 6/35 and jesus said unto him, i am the bread of life; he that cometh to me shall never hunger,and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. jn 6/29 jesus answered, and said unto them,this is the work of god,that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. eternal conscious torment is taught in the gospel of john in john 5/24 death, jn 3/16 perish,jn 3/36 the wrath of god. paul says in ii thess 1/8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god, and that obey not the gospel of our lord jesus christ;v9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the lord, and from the glory of his power, the apostle paul couldnt make it any clearer about eternal conscious torment than vs 8 and 9.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
What part of destruction means conscious torment? It is not there. The ONLY people who will have eternal life, are those that believe in Jesus, John 3:16.
I think the medical model fits the idea of salvation, a healing process. If you go to a doctor with a serious illness, and she tells you what to do to remedy the situation, you can believe all you want, but unless you actually take the remedy, what good is the remedy? If you do to a pharmacy and buy a prescription, and take it home and put it on the shelf and never take the medicine, will you get well? You believe it will help, but you refuse to obey the truth? Does it help to just have the medicine or must you take it? Faith without works is dead.
mr way the scriptures are very clear about eternal damnation of the unbelieving ii thess 1/8-9. rom 5/8 but god demonstrates his own love for us that while we are yet sinners christ died for us. a very important point for you to consider is that salvation is act of faith not a” healing process” jn 5/24, eph 2/8-9. gal 3/22 in jesus christ. act 17/30-31 what must i do to be saved?v31 and they said, believe on the lord jesus christ ,and thou shalt be saved. salvation is a free gift rom 6/23 and wholly without works which is what your implying by “a healing process” ii tim 1/9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,not according to our works,but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in christ jesus before the world began. i cor 15/1-4 moreover brethren,i declare unto you the gospel which i preached unto you,which also ye have received,and wherein,ye stand: vs2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what i preached unto you,unless ye have believed in vain. vs 3 for i delievered unto you first of all that which i also received how that christ died for our sins according to the scriptures:v4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: the divine order is:first salvation,then works eph 2/9-10,tit 3-5-8.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Scripture is very clear about eternal DESTRUCTION.
Ken said, “a very important point for you to consider is that salvation is act of faith not a” healing process””
Salvation: G4991
σωτηρία
sōtēria
so-tay-ree’-ah
Feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): – deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
When an accident victim goes to an emergency room terribly injured, the victim said to the doctor, “save me”. Sin has damaged us greatly. The healing model fits salvation very well.
Luke 1:77 KJV To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
When a patient has cancer, the treatment is intended to do what? Cause the cancer to go into remission.
Remission, G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
af’-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: – deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.
Thayer Definition:
1) release from bondage or imprisonment
2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
Just like the goal of cancer treatment, to make is as if the cancer never existed. This the remission of the penalty.
Romans 6:23 NRSV For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yes, a free gift. This does not imply doing nothing. Would you claim that we can believe in Jesus, and then kill our wife or children? Is that OK now that I have accepted Christ? Of course not!! If you choose to blantantly sin, then that shows you have not accepted Christ. Our works will not save us, but they will destroy us if we freely choose to sin.
Titus 3:5-7 AKJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; (7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Compare Titus with Isaiah:
Isaiah 53:11 AKJV He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Jesus’ Grace = Jesus Knowledge.
Knowledge of what? To solve the sin problem, to heal us.
Jesus performed many miracles. Many were the healing people of all the sickness. Consider this: Mark 2:9 AKJV Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Your sins be forgiven you; or to say, Arise, and take up your bed, and walk?
What is easier? They are the same. Sin has caused all disease and sickness. The healing of the paralytic is the forgiveness of sin. All death, all sickness, all evil is caused by sin. Salvation is the healing of all things of sin. So ken, salvation is healing. It is very clear. Example after example is given in the Bible. Ask Jerry.
mr way salvation tit 3/5-8 is act of faith in jesus christ eph 2/8-9 very simple. the divine order salvation then works. jn 5/24 verily verily, i say unto you,he that believeth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life. the passages i have quoted speak very clearly about eternal life,death to life.
ken – 1 John 3:14 ESV We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers.
If you love your brother, does this mean you can then kill them? No. Loving your brother is active, no passive.
You quote John 5:24 ESV Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Yes! Yes! Yes! The one that hears and believes, has eternal life. Otherwise, you are dead, gone, no further existence. To say that an unbeliever has life, is contrary to scripture.
The phrase “hear my word”, this means, the one who understands. Hear also, as in Luke 8:25 AKJV And he said to them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commands even the winds and water, and they obey him.
The word “obey”, in Greek is G5219
ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo’-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: – hearken, be obedient to, obey.
To obey, is to intelligently listen, to hear the voice of God, and understand, and conform. Salvation is a transformational process. It is not a legal process. Romans 12:2 AKJV And be not conformed to this world: but be you transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
mr way rom 12/1-2 are two vs that paul exhorts believers in jesus christ based on the mercies of god in chapters 1-8. only a born again believer can obey these two commands. the theme of book of romans is rom 1/16-17 the just shall live by faith. faith in jesus christ is basis for the practice of the christian. doctrine is the basis for christian walk.divine order salvation then works. you say that salvation is not legal you need to carefully the read romans 3/24-31 vs kjv 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redempion that is in christ jesus,v25 whom god hath set fort to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,through the forebearance of god: v26 to declare,i say, at this time his righteousness,that he might be just and the justifier of him who believeth in jesus. mr way righteousness of god is all that god demands and approves,and is ultimately found in christ himself,who fully met in our stead every requirement of the law. i co 1/30 christ is made unto righteousness. did you see that in vs 26 the just and justifier of him who believeth in jesus christ.believers are legally accepted in jesus christ!!! rom 5/1 therefore,being justified by faith ,we have peace with god through our lord jesus christ. justification is our legal position, standing before god. mr way have you put your trust in jesus christ? in jn 10/10 jesus said i have come that ye might have life and have it more abundantly. can you say your trusting in jesus for eternal life?
ken – you say everyone has eternal life. How can this be, when the Bible says that only those that trust God have eternal life? faith = TRUST. Where ever you read the word faith, substitute trust. It is false to think that because you claim to have faith, that you then need to do nothing else. Wrong. If you really trust God, you will keep His commandments. Jesus said, John 14:15 AKJV If you love me, keep my commandments. The OT says, Exodus 20:5-6 AKJV You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And showing mercy to thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Deuteronomy 5:10 AKJV … And showing mercy to thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Only those that trust God, will have eternal life.
mr way appreciate your comments and points you make. however i didnt say that everyone has eternal life at all. only those who trust in jesus christ jn3/16 ,jn 5/24,eph 2/8-9 vs8 for by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:it is the gift of god:there are 2 ways men try to get to heaven,either by works or by faith in jesus christ. which one are you mr way? the next verse v9 here is very important for us to consider. vs 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. trust and faith are both saying simply to” take God at his word” to rest in his promises. psm 37/3-7. remember the commands were given to show us we couldnt keep them rom 3/19 now we know that what things soever the law saith,it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before god. vs 20 therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight for by the law is the knowledge of sin. as a christian obedience to gods word is very important. a christian has the holy spirit indwelling him i co 3/16 that we appropriate by faith to walk in obedience. gal 5/16-17. the holy spirit is the key to walking in obedience in the daily christian life. “surrender” the key word for the believer to be in a attitude of humilty and dependence on the holy spirit eph 5/18 gal 5/16-17.
ken – have you read what I have posted? Repeatedly I have said, over and over, that there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. Nothing. We do have a choice! Do we want to be saved or not? God will not force salvation on us, we need to accept His gift. We can actively choose to refuse the gift. We can say, we have faith in Jesus, but if we then go and murder, or cheat on our wifes, are we saved? Once saved always saved does not work. 1 John 3:14 ESV We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. We have passed to life if we love our brothers, which means will not do them harm, such as murder or cheating on our wife. Paul said:Romans 7:8-10 ESV But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.
See, the 10 Commandments not only say, do not murder or steal or cheat on your wife, but the 10th is the hardest!!! Is says that a truly converted person, one who really loves the Lord, will not even want to murder, steal, cheat. Even in the face of great adversity! Look at Jesus. He let his creatures torture, and kill Him. And he did not fight back.
Eternal life – yes, you did say everyone has eternal life, so has jerry. If the wicked have conscious torment without end, then yes, they are conscious, they have life. This is contrary to what the Bible teaches. Yes, there is fire that will destroy in the end. It may work like this: Romans 12:20 AKJV Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head.