Real Bible Study Applies to Real Life Part 2
Turmoil continues on the political and educational scene.
I heard mention on the news this morning that Detroit will be required to close half its schools, and that class sizes will grow to 60 students at the high school level.
Protests are being mounted in Michigan’s capital city, Lansing, with the Tea Party Movement, Republicans, and on the other side, the teachers out in full force.
Among my emails this morning is one from “RightMarch.com PAC, Patriotism in Action,” asking me to support Wisconsin Governor Walker’s budget cutting proposals.
Objections are raised to the state collecting teacher union dues.
That is nonsense. Republicans and misinformed Tea Party activists may peddle slick propaganda, but they hardly know how to tell the truth. And, in terms of what the Bible teaches, that is INJUSTICE in the extreme.
Like taxes, teacher union dues are collected by means of payroll deduction.
What the right-wing faction is after is to dismantle the Teachers’ Union. This faction wants to institute conditions equivalent to what is called a “Right to Work” state. And that amounts directly to a “Lack of due process state” where employers can extend working hours without additional remuneration to the teachers or other workers, a direct violation of the commands in the Bible (Luke 10:7. Jeremiah 22:13).
And the reasoning behind that (dismantling the Teachers’ Union, gutting the Teachers’ Contract)?
They want administrators to be able to fire a teacher on a whim. Administrators are too lazy and inept (I fully documented that in Part 1) to follow due process procedures. Administrators claim it is too hard and too costly to treat teachers fairly and properly. They want to be able to fire them outright. And they would if they could.
Why do the Tea Party and Republican protestors want union dues to be voluntary? Because this would decimate the strength of the union. In plain English, Republicans and Tea Party protestors are engaged in blatant union-busting.
Furthermore, why should some teachers get the benefits of hard-won contract improvements without having to pay union dues? They want to be free-loaders, which is clearly unjust to those teachers who are footing the bill.
My father told me many years ago, “The only reason you need unions is because of bad management.”
We currently have bad management in the schools because we have inept and immoral and incompetent administrators, as I documented thoroughly in Part 1.
He was absolutely right.
I see no evidence in all this commotion to put forth a movement to evaluate and improve administrators. They must be sacrosanct.
And they are growing in numbers.
And administrators are very highly paid.
When I began to teach at Denby High School in Detroit in 1990 the school had two administrators: the Principal and one Assistant Principal. When I was a student in Detroit at Cass Technical High School, a school of 5000 students, there was only one Principal and one Assistant Principal. That is the way it should be.
But by the time I retired from teaching at Denby High School, the administrative staff had grown to seven Assistant Principals. And Denby High School has just over 2000 students.
Many school systems are administratively top-heavy. That seems to reflect the fact that administrators of today are less competent than those who preceded them, so more of them are required, and they still don’t know how to get the job done!
In the sources I cited in Part 1, statements were made about how teachers are overpaid. The salary figure most prominently featured was $100,000 a year.
I think this morning’s email was more honest: it reports for Wisconsin:
• Average teacher salary: $48,000
But then the absurd statement is given:
• Normalized for a 12 month work year: $64,400
Of course, never a word about the fact that teachers work nine months a year, indeed, but the time they get off is an UNPAID INVOLUNTARY LAYOFF, so attempting to foist the notion of “normalized for a 12 month work year” is nonsense and unjust.
It seems everyone who has ever gone to school deems themselves experts about the schools.
If you are able to read this with understanding, be thankful to God that He privileged you to have teachers somewhere along the line who successfully taught you how to read.
Most people in America do not know how to read. Only one-third of college graduates know how to read adequately according to research I read published just last year.
Most Bible believing Christians who read and study their Bibles, especially if they make use of the King James Version, have taught themselves to read at a higher grade level of reading comprehension than most students otherwise achieve by the time they graduate from high school.
I read an article by Diane Ravitch, an excellent opinion piece, about what is really behind the protests in Wisconsin being mounted against the teachers. In the public comments below, a poster asserted that while it is good to encourage students to read non-fiction at home, reading the Bible is counterproductive because people who read the Bible demonstrate such ignorance about everything else.
As an experienced reading specialist I can assure you that most of the students who came from Bible reading homes demonstrated better behavior and better reading skills than most other students who came from families that did not share this background. I observed this repeatedly and regularly in the students in my own classroom for more than thirty years.
INJUSTICE IS AT THE HEART OF THIS WHOLE PROBLEM.
Why are states like Wisconsin and Michigan and Ohio and Tennessee and probably everywhere else facing such problems and pressures?
The problems are financial.
The problems reflect the higher unemployment rate because of this Second Depression.
Unemployed people can no longer afford to stay in their expensive homes. They cannot keep up the mortgage payments and fall behind.
Property values fall, and reduce property tax revenue.
In many states, it is the property taxes that support the schools.
But the real estate market is a continuing fiasco.
AND THAT IS THE HEART OF THE INJUSTICE PROBLEM.
Banks and Mortgage Companies with the assistance of relaxed standards of accounting and law made mortgage loans to people without verifying whether those people were in a position to make good on repaying the mortgage.
They bundled these mortgages into very risky investment vehicles and sold them to unwary investors, including not only individual investors but even some pension funds.
Banks themselves were allowed to engage in very risky investments after the bankers’ lobbyists recently persuaded Congress to get rid of the Glass-Steagal Act, passed at the tail end of the Great Depression to prevent banks from engaging in such practices ever again.
Now we see the outcome and unwisdom of these decisions.
Banks, especially some very large ones, tottering on the verge of insolvency, strong-armed Congress again, threatening that the looming disaster would result in tanks in the streets, demanding they be bailed out as “TOO BIG TO FAIL.”
It is the greed of the financial community that has directly brought on our present economic meltdown.
The banks, especially the Federal Reserve, have DIRECTLY VIOLATED BLACK LETTER LAW WITH IMPUNITY, and it is they who are to blame for the problems states are now facing.
Our Federal Judges and the Courts have largely refused to address these problems, though there are some very significant lawsuits making their way through both state and federal courts that may bring redress for a few.
But so far, not a single banker has been placed in handcuffs or in jail for violating the law.
IT IS THE CONTINUED FLAGRANT REFUSAL TO ENFORCE PRESENT LAWS THAT LETS THIS SECOND DEPRESSION CONTINUE.
Bankers have flagrantly flaunted the rule of law because they know what the Bible teaches:
“WHERE THERE IS NO PENALTY, THERE IS NO LAW.”
AND THAT IS ABSOLUTE INJUSTICE.
The Bible declares that when God hears the cry of the poor, He responds.
Those who are responsible for the injustice had better look out!
To learn more, do some Real Bible Study for a change. Get your Bible out. Get hold of Nelson’s Cross Reference Guide to the Bible and dig into the references supplied on this subject, starting at Exodus 3:7-8. Be sure to follow the “+” symbol which indicates “Find more here,” as at Exodus +22:23-24.
I furnished my three administrators at Southeastern High School a printout of many of those cross references. I knew they were each active in their own church, and though they might not take the time to look up the references, perhaps they would read them if I printed them all out for them.
As the school union representative, I was charged with oversight of enforcement and compliance with the teacher contract. But as a Christian, I knew that the most important contract is the contract God has carefully spelled out in the Bible. If you break His contract, you are in very serious trouble. Just check out the cross references at Genesis 6:13 which demonstrate God promises to deal with injustice here and now as well as hereafter, and Malachi 3:5, which spells out the provisions of God’s teacher contract, for He is “against those that oppress the hireling in his wages.”
jerry i really appreciate the points your making about injustice in school administrations and the importance of the bible. at the root of all injustice is “the problem of the sinful heart, what does jer 17/9 say? “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperatedly wicked: who can know it? the more man moves from the bible and its teachings the more injustice and evil. instead of educators being part of the solution they become part of the problem! the only answers to the problems of our society is jesus christ, who said in john 14/6 i am the way,the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me. john 8/12 i am the light of the world, and he who follows me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life!
Dear Ken,
You are right–the very heart of the problem is the sin problem.
That is why I have pinpointed just a very few of the falsehoods being spread about just what is really going on.
Our hope is ultimately not in any political process, party, or candidate, but in God’s Word, which alone by the operation of the Holy Spirit has the power to change hearts.
I hope you will look up the cross references to the verses I focused on in this post. To make a thorough study of Genesis 6:13 and its references, and the references there marked with the “+” which means “Find more here” will change your view of just what it is God says He will do, both now and hereafter.
Further study of the cross references at Exodus 3:7 and Exodus 22:23-24 will provide a most powerful lesson on what God states are the requirements of justice, and what He will do about injustice.
Malachi 3:5 is likewise a powerful text, and consulting all its cross references will be a sobering experience for anyone who will take the time to do so.
Too many preachers, pastors, and supposedly Bible-believing Christians are caught up in shallow “churchianity,” and they have very little true knowledge or understanding of Biblical Christianity. There is a big difference.
Many Christians who may have the opportunity to listen to Christian radio would never guess, and certainly would never hear, what the Bible says about these matters.
Do you really think you know God through His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ? Then you had better listen up to what God declares in His written Word, the Bible. Check out the expression in Malachi 3:5, “and fear not me.” Check out the expression, “is not this to know me” in Jeremiah 22:16 (from the English Standard Version, emphasis added),
I really wish there were more people who would find this site and study what has been presented here!
Here is a link to a website I frequently visit because its author is very well informed about economic issues. Mr. Carl Denninger uses rather strong language at times, but his analysis of economic matters is excellent.
His knowledge of education issues, and his comments against teacher unions, shows he does not know as much about those issues.
He appears to be a very moral man who stands up for moral principles, but I doubt he has any knowledge of the Bible.
Too bad there is not some way for him to be encouraged to do some reading here!
In any case, here is the link:
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=180591
Now, if I only knew how to make this link live, but I’m too new at this kind of thing.
But, if you copy and paste the link into your web browser, the link will get you there.
I see the link is live, so just click on it.
I just heard a discussion on WJR 760 AM Detroit, minutes ago this morning, on the Frank Beckman Show.
The discussion concerned the issue of how terrible collective bargaining and unions are in the public sector, such as the teachers unions.
The “expert” guest who was interviewed was from the http://www.americanthinker.com website.
The argument was that the unions support the politicians who in turn support the unions, and the public who foot the bills are left out of this equation. This was described as an incestuous relationship.
Of course, no mention was ever made of the issues of justice I have brought up here.
Jesus said that the laborer is worthy of his hire (Luke 10:7).
The Bible requires fair treatment of all workers, including the requirement that all workers are entitled to receive a living wage.
The matter of fair treatment on the job by supervisors and administration or management is never brought up in such discussions, whether on the radio or in print.
As the school union representative, I once found it necessary to write a grievance in support of a very good teacher.
I titled the grievance, “ADMINISTRATORS DO NOT KNOW HOW TO TELL TIME.”
The negotiated teacher contract defined the teacher work day.
The administration was requiring all teachers to work beyond the time limits set by the teacher contract for the work day without providing the teachers any additional pay for the time worked beyond the required work day.
I won the grievance, as always, and the adverse written reprimand was removed from the teacher’s file.
Eventually the school board was required to pay for all the hours teachers worked beyond the hours stipulated in the contract.
Union Contracts and Collective Bargaining are necessary because even school administrators are apparently so incompetent that they do not know how to tell time!
You might counter, “Teachers ought to work more hours with no additional pay.”
Stealing time from dedicated teachers is counterproductive.
Most teachers, particularly English teachers, spend a vast amount of time–unpaid–outside of school hours preparing to teach lessons, and in particular, reading and grading student papers.
Demanding that teachers attend more teachers’ meetings, teach more class hours per day, cuts into those hours the teacher once had to grade papers carefully in a timely manner and do lesson planning and preparation.
Here in Michigan teachers have been forced to teach far more hours and the school year has been lengthened without teachers receiving a dime more pay for the extra hours worked. That took place even with the teacher union in place.
On Judgment Day, there will be hell to pay for injustices like these!
Even clearer, in the King James Version, this passage reads:
My father said “We need unions because of bad management.”
When school administrators cannot even tell time, that is sure evidence of not only bad management, but of severe incompetency on their part.
That is why public sector unions are a necessity.
It would be absolute injustice to eliminate such protections of employees as they still have.
It is in times like these that the true colors and loyalties begin to show brightly.
Republicans, corporate leadership, Tea Party activists, all come out against unions, against teachers.
Rush Limbaugh is on WJR radio in Detroit just now talking about all these terrible teachers who earn twice the wages of their neighbors who walk out of school to go on the picket line or join a protest against responsible Republican politicians who are trying very hard to bring the state budgets back into balance.
Rush asked something to the effect, why should John Q. Public pay for such an outrage? Especially when the stimulus money from President Obama’s Administration simply turns out to be a slush fund to support public sector workers, particularly teachers, whose unions strongly support the Democratic Party and re-elect Democratic Politicians year after year. Not only that, but the unions buy advertising for the Democratic Party and its candidates.
Well, who is paying for the Republican Party politicians and candidates, if not Corporate America and the Chambers of Commerce from across the country?
And just which segment of the population managed to ship all the good manufacturing jobs overseas because they did not want to pay the price for cleaner air and water here? And because they do not want to pay a real living wage as the Bible itself commands?
And who would rather pay shipping for all those slow boats to and from China and support Communist slave labor and Muslim slave labor overseas?
A friend asked a good question of me this morning in a conversation on Windows Messenger:
Where are we supposed to get the money to continue paying such good wages and benefits to our teachers?
My answer is, the same place you found the money to bail out the Banksters because they were TOO BIG TO FAIL, a plea the Bankster Class makes about every decade or decade and a half.
At the time all the Bankster Furor arose, I was reading a book published around 1993, at least the edition I was reading, with a title something like The Secret of Jekyl Island, a full-length history of how the Federal Reserve was founded in 1913 by fraud and subterfuge conducted by the Banking Cartel, the Rothchilds, J. P. Morgan, Chase, and other familiar banking family names still with us today. The headlines cited in that book sometime before 1993 were the same hue and cry we have heard now, “TOO BIG TO FAIL! Their actions are repeated on a regular basis to transfer this nation’s wealth to themselves. That is what the problem is, not the collective bargaining agreements of teachers which attempt to preserve the due process rights all workers should have (according to the standards of Biblical justice) I’ve proclaimed here.
The trouble is, there are almost no Christians who actually study the Bible, and probably no Christian leaders that do so.
That is the purpose of this site, to encourage Real Bible Study. I am here to share my knowledge of how to do it.
Any questions?
My mother was a teacher in public schools and I grew up in a single parent home. It is interesting that to be a teacher in many school districts, you MUST join the union. Where is the justice for the teacher that does not want to join the union? Where is the justice for the teacher that crosses the picket line during strikes that the teacher does not believe in? Unions often use force and coercion. These are not attributes of God. See Zechariah 4:6. Administration often uses the same tactics. For sure, Jesus’ Kingdom is not of this world.
Dear A. Way,
It is a delight to see you back!
Did you read Part 1 of this so far two-part series?
When I began working for Michigan Bell Telephone Company I was required to be a member of the Communications Worker Union of America. At that time, I was not in favor of joining the union.
That is when my father told me, “The reason we need unions is because of bad management.
When I first started teaching public school, union membership was not required. I seem to recall I joined both “unions,” the DEA (Detroit Education Association) and the DFT (the Detroit Federation of Teachers).
Even now, teachers in Detroit are not required to join the union, but those who do not have to pay what I think is called an “agency fee,” which is equivalent to the dues that union members pay.
This seems about as fair as one can expect in secular organizations today. The union position is that it costs money to represent teachers, and in a pinch, the union will represent the interests even of non-members in this arrangement.
The issue is a matter of justice, a central theme in the Bible, and the major issue Isaiah brings up in his book in the chapters I’ve worked on so far. I just finished Isaiah 12.
Many evangelical Christians have memorized Isaiah 1:18, but I would venture to guess that very few of them can quote Isaiah 1:17 by memory.
Shame on us for failing to emphasize what the Lord Himself emphasizes in His Word!
If a labor union goes on strike against their employer, say the garbage collectors. It is only the employer that is affected by the strike? If a “scab” crosses the picket line, does the union love his brother, or is it more often the “scab” is the object or harassment and sometimes even violence? Is Violence ever justified? Does God use coercive force?
Dear A. Way,
If justice were practiced by both union and management, we would not need management and we would not need unions, at least in public education.
In my experience, unions called a strike as a last resort when management would not hear to reason. Management thinks it can get away with murder, and usually does. If not murder (speaking figuratively), they surely get away with fraud (literally), and violate the commandment which states we must not defraud anyone (Mark 10:19).
Management works to defraud the laborer at every chance it gets of what is properly due the worker.
In public school where I taught, principals would “dock” a teacher’s pay for an alleged violation of the working day, but when challenged, would respond “If you don’t like what I did, grieve it.”
Of course, Administrators could determine and order that teachers must work above and beyond the contractual teachers’ work day, and would never hear to the notion teachers should be paid for time worked beyond the school day at the administration’s request.
One school principal had the bell schedule reset to reflect when he thought classes should end at the end of the school day. If a teacher dismissed class on time (bell or no bell), or if a teacher without a class left at the proper time (bell or no bell), the teacher was “written up.”
As the union representative, I in turn “wrote up” the administrator involved. And, like I said before, I always won. When you are in the right you can stand up without fear for the right. That, you will recall, is when I demonstrated that administrators do not know how to tell time.
Management or Administration has no business holding back an employee’s wages without due process FIRST, contract or no contract, union or no union. It is the requirement of the Law in the Bible!
In the case of teacher strikes, strikes were prompted by a recalcitrant Administration that REFUSED TO BARGAIN IN GOOD FAITH. Not only that, the Administration REFUSED TO BARGAIN AT ALL. They started “negotiations” in March, for example, but did not come to any agreements about anything at all. They did not start serious bargaining until school started in September, though the union was ready to do so all along, including the whole time of summer vacation.
If you study the cross references to the various Bible verses I have cited on this issue of justice, you will discover that God does not take too kindly to injustice, something practically none of our supposedly Bible believing ministries, churches, or denominations emphasize.
But God emphasizes this subject in the Bible!
Mark 10:19 – quoting the 10C which of course excluded the 4th. It works both ways. And I think you have ignored my observation that unions can be very a coercive force. I recall the recent New York City snow removal “slowdown” which affected millions. Both side, workers and management frequently exhibit traits which do not conform to “kingdom” principles. You did not address my question – does God use coercive force in the exercise of justice? And how will God eliminate sin? Burn all the bad actors alive? These are real life questions.
Dear A. Way,
You make a very astute observation! Whenever the New Testament quotes the Ten Commandments, it ALWAYS excludes the FOURTH Commandment!
That is because of the Ten Commandments, it is the only one which has been fulfilled. It is the only Commandment which had a Typical Significance. Christ completely fulfilled the Type. Just as there are no more Sacrifices, so there is no more Sabbath to be observed (Romans 14:5, 6; Colossians 2:16). The work of Christ fulfilled the Law (Matthew 5:18), and the Sabbath is now Complete! To continue to try to observe it (and even then only so much as is convenient!) is to dishonor the Completed Work of Christ.
As for unions being a coercive force, that is usually to the good. Where there is no penalty, there is no law. If there were no negative consequences for defying a union contract, surely there would be more administrative or management defiance of the contract provisions than there now is.
Unions, by and large, are not Christian Institutions, so in this world they are liable to do things we as Christians would not approve. That is why Christians need to quit preaching to the Choir, and get out into the real world with the message and principles of the Gospel.
Does God use coercive force in the exercise of His Justice?
Indeed He does!
See the cross references at Isaiah 10:5 in The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge or Nelson’s Cross Reference Guide to the Bible.
He used pagan nations to chastise and punish Israel as recorded in the Old Testament.
How will God eliminate sin? In the here and now; contrary to the teaching of churches at large, the Gospel has the power to place us “in Christ,” with a new nature, which overcomes sin. The Greek word for “forgive” is generally better understood as “remove” our sin. That will be fully apparent shortly when my good scholar friend Dr. Malcolm Lavender publishes his Lavender New Testament, which is the only doctrinally unbiased English translation that has ever been made. It is free from the bondage to the Roman Catholic Salvation Vocabulary imported into Protestantism at the Reformation when the Reformation leaders failed to carry the Reformation far enough!
Will God burn all the bad actors alive?
The Bible clearly and most forcefully and repeatedly says He will. Eternal punishment is not merely eternal in result, but eternal in duration, just as eternal life, spoken of in the SAME SENTENCE is!
Indeed, these are Real Life Questions. The only way to get Real Life Answers is to do Real Bible Study!
Your eternal life will last as long as their eternal punishment. If you shorten the one, you must shorten the other. If you limit the one, you must limit the other. The Greek word for “everlasting” and for “eternal” in this sentence is the SAME WORD.
God the Father is eternal or everlasting:
Again, the SAME GREEK WORD used to describe the duration of our eternal life is used to describe the eternal or everlasting existence of God, the same underlying Greek word used to describe the DURATION of eternal punishment.
Anyone who disagrees with this very plain truth of the Bible needs to be aware that they are caught up in a false gospel, false because it does not conform to the plain teaching of the Word of God in the Bible. Of any such person I must say, “Your materialist theology is showing!”
The Sadducees were materialist in their theology too, and Jesus once for all time utterly refuted and denounced their viewpoint as great error, warning them that they were ignorant of the Scriptures (Mark 12:24, 27; see Acts 23:8).
Yes, well, you know we disagree about the 10C. The Sabbath predated the Jews, and only the ceremonial Sabbaths typified the plan of salvation, 7 of them. The weekly Sabbath is the reminder of the creator. See Exodus 20:8-11.
As for God’s use of force, it is true other nations did “punish” Israel, such as Babylon. Yet Babylon was punished for going too far.
Another example:
Deuteronomy 32:22-30 GNB (v22) My anger will flame up like fire and burn everything on earth. It will reach to the world below and consume the roots of the mountains. (v23) ” ‘I will bring on them endless disasters and use all my arrows against them. (v24) They will die from hunger and fever; they will die from terrible diseases. I will send wild animals to attack them, and poisonous snakes to bite them. (v25) War will bring death in the streets; terrors will strike in the homes. Young men and young women will die; neither babies nor old people will be spared. (v26) I would have destroyed them completely, so that no one would remember them. (v27) But I could not let their enemies boast that they had defeated my people, when it was I myself who had crushed them.’ (v28) “Israel is a nation without sense; they have no wisdom at all. (v29) They fail to see why they were defeated; they cannot understand what happened. (v30) Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The LORD, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up.This is not so much as coercive force and God letting the people have their own way, and it is not pretty.
Punishment – yet, the punishment of the wicked is eternal. No question. It lasts forever. I hope you are not saying that they are alive and tortured forever. As Mat 25:46 says, only one group has life eternal. The others are burned up, consumed, eternally gone.
Eze 28:18-19 You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the middle of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all them that behold you. (19) All they that know you among the people shall be astonished at you: you shall be a terror, and never shall you be any more
As for labor unions, to lump them as all good and management as all bad, is going way too far…
If you want to see how God treats people, look at Jesus.
I have not intentionally labeled all unions as good, and all management as bad.
I have intended to present counterbalancing information the public is not generally informed of about just how bad some administrators are.
Good teachers need to be protected and defended against bad administrators.
I have not yet seen any articles on the Internet, or heard any newscasts defending the position I have written about here.
In your response to my prior comment, you are logically equivocating on the meaning of the word “eternal,” an equivocation which clearly is not supported by the Bible at all. You have swallowed the false doctrines of theological materialists.
The Bible says that God is spirit (John 4:24). It also says that angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:13, 14). The Bible also declares that upon our death, we are spirits (Hebrews 12:23). From this evidence alone (if coupled with Zechariah 12:1) it is absolutely certain from what Jesus said and warned as well as promised (Matthew 10:28) that all who die physically are still conscious after the death of the body. Jesus did not teach theological materialism, but refuted it most sternly.
Jesus plainly taught that both the righteous and the wicked shall be resurrected to life in a permanent body, the righteous to “life,” the wicked to the resurrection of “condemnation.” Those unfortunately consigned to “condemnation” have no basis to suppose that the duration of their punishment is limited, for Jesus applied the term “eternal” or “everlasting” to both (Matthew 25:46).
Why did Jesus speak of one saying it would have been better for that person to have never been born? To have never been born would be the ultimate example of non-existence. The wicked are not, or shall they ever be, in such a state.
By your principles, one might plausibly argue that those who enter eternal life have it only as long as their goodness or righteousness merits, then it comes to an end!
By the way, Ezekiel 28:18, 19 has reference to what is observed in this world in this life, not the eternal destiny of the individuals involved.
Here is my response to what I had hoped would be a constructive article by a Christian writer on the subject of ” How Teacher Unions Protect Teachers from being Fired.” If I were to write such an article, perhaps I would title it “How Teacher Unions Protect Teachers from being Fired Unjustly.”
The article to which I responded may be found at this link:
https://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/how-teacher-unions-protect-teachers-from-being-fired/#comment-23828
I believe your article, “How Teacher Unions Protect Teachers from being Fired,” is very one-sided. It clearly does not hold up to the standards of justice clearly stated in the Bible. By clicking on my name you should be directed to my two-part discussion of this issue of the justice of both having and defending teacher unions in terms of what the Bible actually teaches.
Jesus plainly said that “The laborer is worthy of his hire” (Luke 10:7).
The Bible also condemns false accusers.
In many cases, unfortunately not all, children make false accusations against their teachers for various reasons. It is not fun to be the intended victim of a false accusation.
The Bible also teaches “Where there is no penalty, there is no law,” though not in these words (but consider Isaiah 26:9 and Ecclesiastes 8:11).
I do not support teacher wrong-doing. But I do not support pupil, Administrator or Management wrong-doing either.
I do believe Christians who believe the Bible (and that is really the only kind of Christians there are) must stop preaching to the Choir, and get the message of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ out into the world and the marketplace, including teacher unions and public schools.
By the way, anyone who earns a living is in it for the MONEY!
Very few of us are so financially blessed that we can afford to work for free.
Very few of us would be interested in working in working for less, I’m sure. But management is often ready to increase working hours without increasing the pay, which is a clear violation of the Bible (see Jeremiah 22:13, 16). Furthermore, wages must be paid on time (Leviticus 19:13).
Consideration of the fact that teachers must attend college and earn the requisite degree or degrees to qualify to be a teacher, that now rather major investment of time and money must be protected.
Teachers are readily judged “unsatisfactory” by administrative whim. Yet often the administrator’s basis of judgment of the teacher is totally flawed. That is INJUSTICE, which the Bible clearly condemns, and is the reason why we need teacher unions and teacher tenure.
And as a Christian teacher in the public schools of Detroit, I found it demeaning and counter-productive to the teaching of my students when I was told how to do my job by administrators and supervisors who clearly did not possess the degree or extent of knowledge about my subject or the field of education itself that I do.
But since they hired me, and I did not hire them, I obeyed my supervisors and administrators unless what they asked me to do was contrary to the teacher contract or contrary to God’s Contract found in the Bible.
If the administration required me to violate the teacher contract, I immediately obeyed them, but also as the school union representative for many years, immediately notified my union. Then I wrote up a grievance against my administrators, and for the record, I believe my recall is correct when I assert that I never lost a grievance. I always won, because I stood strong for what is right.
The wicked shall be consumed as stubble, and that they shall be as ashes under our feet in the new earth; they shall be as if they had not been.
That is the final end of the wicked. There is not eternally burning hell, and the dead know not anything. In fact to say that there is life after death (without resurrection) is to call God a liar. This is in fact what Satan (the serpent) did in the Garden.
I do not read in the Bible a conscious eternal torment. I do read that the punishment will be eternal, they will be stubble, ashes under foot.
I suggest reading the book, “The Fire that Consumes” by Edward Fudge.
Dear A. Way,
In a post a bit above you began your comment with this paragraph:
Perhaps the older we get, the shorter our memories.
I answered your assertion that “The Sabbath predated the Jews.”
Your assertion is totally false because:
(1) The Hebrew word for Sabbath does NOT occur in the book of Genesis. Therefore, in terms of the historical record in Genesis there is absolutely no evidence to support your claim.
(2) There is NO RECORD of the keeping of the Sabbath in the book of Genesis, not one. They did not keep the Sabbath because the command to do so had not been given or otherwise revealed. So again, there is absolutely no actual EVIDENCE to support your assertion. Therefore, your claim is found wanting, and is false or mistaken.
(3) While there is mention of the marking of the week as a period of seven days in Genesis, this does not argue for the existence of the Sabbath, for it is never used to refer to a periodic, weekly, day of rest or rest and worship. So that bit of evidence does not apply either.
(4) We do have the record of when the Sabbath was originally instituted, not re-instituted, in the account of Exodus 16. I discussed this in depth elsewhere on this site. It was clearly a new and unfamiliar institution because a number of people out of habit, no doubt, went forth on the Sabbath to gather manna, even though it had been explained that none would be furnished that day. They were to have remained at home for a day of rest. God “scolded” them for this, but He was gracious and apparently granted them some leeway at the start of this Sabbath Institution and did not punish them.
(5) Later, a case law example is given where a man who went out to pick up sticks to maintain his fire on the Sabbath was judged guilty of Sabbath-breaking, and the death penalty was imposed.
NOTE that such a severe penalty must have some basis and reason behind it. The weekly Sabbath was a Type, and God intended that the Sacredness of the Type not be violated.
Evidently God was very particular about the sacredness of these Types, for when Moses in an outburst struck the rock twice instead of just once as commanded, God punished Moses by not allowing him to live to enter the Promised Land.
(6) Your attempt to divorce the weekly Sabbath from the other Sabbaths given in the Old Testament is severely flawed, because in Leviticus 23 the Weekly Sabbath is numbered first among the rest of the special feasts enumerated in that chapter. All of the Sabbaths served as Types. Since the Sabbath Institution is a Type, the only Type included in the Ten Commandments as the Fourth Commandment, that Commandment is the only Commandment which has been completely fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ. Since the Type has been fulfilled in minute detail by Christ as demonstrated and declared by Himself, the Sabbath is now Complete, and is not only no longer obligatory, it is not to be observed at all. Our worship is not Sabbath worship, but the worship of Christ who is the Lord of the Sabbath. We may freely choose to worship on the Sabbath or the First Day of the Week in commemoration of His resurrection, or on any and every day, as Paul affirmed in Romans 14:5, 6. We are not to allow anyone to judge us in any manner about this issue (Colossians 2:16).
Since the Ten Commandments constitute the Ministry of Death (2 Corinthians 3:7, 8) and are included in what Christ “nailed to the Cross,” insistence upon observing the Sabbath for any reason is a violation of the Gospel, and is parallel to the Galatian heresy Paul wrote against, with the admonition that falling back into any aspect of the Law will result directly in loss of salvation (Galatians 5:4). The focus of the Christian life is the New Nature (2 Corinthians 5:17), and being in Christ, and living by the Holy Spirit’s control of that New Nature, of which Sabbath keeping and observance in any form has absolutely no place.
Evidently the Sabbath was the only Ceremonial and Typical Institution included in the Ten Commandments, placed there as a prominent reminder to the Jews of the necessity of keeping it meticulously. That purpose has now been fulfilled, so the Sabbath is not only no longer necessary, it is no longer to be observed.
(7) If your eyes were open to Scripture by means of Independent Personal Bible Study on Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island, apparently the only place and condition under which Real Bible Study can possibly take place, you would readily see that the Sabbath as a Type of Heavenly Rest (Hebrews 4:9, 10) is Complete, just as the Old Testament Sacrifices are fully Complete and fulfilled by the work of Christ for us on the Cross.
It would be a rude violation of Scripture, and a total dishonoring of the work of Christ, to try to go back and re-institute the Old Testament Sacrifices as part of our distinctly New Testament worship (Hebrews 10:4, 11, 29, 30).
In the same manner, keeping the Sabbath is the same flagrant error of dishonoring the significance of the Type of what Christ has already done for us. This is the teaching of Scripture!
No Jerry – I have not forgotten. I just find your arguments to be totally unpersuasive. To say the the 7th day Sabbath has been totally fulfilled ignores the clear statement of the commandment in Exodus 20, which set it up as a memorial to creation. As such, it still has the same force and meaning, along with other meanings.
Take Exodus 16 for example. IF this was the institution of the Sabbath, they why so like instruction on how to keep it? But going further, where in the Book of Genesis is the moral code? It is not there! Was it OK then to lie, kill, steal and commit adultery in Genesis? Genesis was written 2500 years after the fact. Its purpose was not as a rule of life for the Patriarchs, but it was written as a BRIEF history of the events that occurred during that period.
The book of Exodus is written in the writer’s own time. In fact Exodus was probably written after the Sinai event. Your argument to me that the Sabbath was not mentioned by name does not hold weight. We have Genesis 2 showing the sanctification of the 7th Day, just as it is in the 4th commandment. But we have been over all this before.
You do hold the majority position on the 4th commandment, and now an eternally burning conscious hell. Is the majority right? What does the Bible say about the majority? Plenty. If you do real Bible study, you will know what happens to the majority.
Majority – there are many minority positions that are very wrong. But consider the majority. What are the majority missing?
I may not know the words of the Bible as you do Jerry. But if you don’t know God and what he is like, all knowledge is useless. The use of force is not God’s way. In this thread, you speak about real life and the Bible. What did Jesus say about the Romans and their government when he was here? You also speak of an eternally burning hell where the wicked are tormented forever. That is not my God. You say it is better to use force to have justice, but what about turning the other cheek to the unjust?
You say the 10C commandments remain save one.
I may not know all the truth, but I know the majority is not right. I know God is not a god of force and torment. What I know of God is real Good News, and He we do not need to be afraid of Him. But He will not force His love on us, and if He lets us have our way, and lets us go, the result is not pretty… GOD IS LOVE, and you don’t believe it, He will burn you in Hell for eternity, NOT. I’m afraid that your god is not my God. Peace to you Jerry.
Dear A. Way,
I hate to break the news to you, but the way of false cults is always wrong, even though they may be in the minority!
But I have clearly stated before that truth is not determined by majority vote, but by the EVIDENCE found in Scripture, carefully and honestly accounted for, as the result of doing Real Bible Study, apart from denominational or cultic literature and helps, and if necessary, and generally it is necessary (in order to break free from the bias of sectarian resources), on “Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island.”
You ask and state:
I have boldfaced examples below that bear more or less directly on the Ten Commandments. Of course, you would prefer to cite one additional instance, namely, the Sabbath, in Genesis 2:3. I disallow this, however, as the word for Sabbath is not there or elsewhere in Genesis, and the Sabbath as enacted in Mosaic Law after the Exodus from Egypt is not reflected in practice in Genesis, for there is no record in Genesis of weekly rest, of refraining from any kind of work, of refraining from conducting business or commerce of any kind on the Seventh Day, all provisions of the Mosaic Law.
In any case, the examples below (adapted and modified from Appendix 15 of The Companion Bible) taken as a whole confirm my assertion that there was very likely an extensive original Divine Revelation from God possessed by the Patriarchs, and that the practices reflected in the following list are good evidence of this fact.
THE LAWS BEFORE SINAI AND THE MORAL CODE IN GENESIS:
(1) The law of a place to worship, Genesis 3:24. 4:3, 4, 16. 9:26, 27. Contravened by our Lord Jesus Christ, John 4:21-24.
(2) The law of acceptance of sacrifice by fire from heaven, Ge 4:4, 5.
(3) The law of sacrifices, Ge 4:4. 15:9. 22:2, 3, 13.
(4) The law of clean and unclean, Ge 7:2. 8:20.
(5) The law of the altar, Ge 8:20. 12:7, 8. 13:4, 18. 22:9. 26:25.
(6) The law of eating flesh, Ge 9:3.
(7) The law against eating blood, Ge 9:4.
(8) The law against murder, Ge 9:5, 6.
(9) The law of parental authority, Ge 9:25. 18:19. 22:1-13. 37:13.
(10) The law of monogamy, Ge 12:18. 16:1.
(11) The law against adultery, Ge 12:18. 20:3, 9. 26:10, 11. 38:24-26. 39:9. 49:4.
(12) The law of priesthood, Ge 14:18, and priestly garments, Ge 27:15. 37:3.
(13) The law of tithes, Ge 14:20. 28:22.
(14) The law of covenant-making, Ge 15:10, 18. 21:27, 32.
(15) The law of intercession, Ge 17:20n. +*18:32. 20:17.
(16) The law of faith, Ge 15:6.
(17) The law of righteousness, Ge 17:1.
(18) The law of circumcision, Ge 17:9, 10.
(19) The law of hospitality, Ge 18:1-8. 19:1-3.
(20) The law against licentiousness, Ge 18:20.
(21) The law against fornication, Ge 34:7.
(22) The law regarding oaths, Ge 21:23. 24:41. 26:28.
(23) The law of binding sacrifices, Ge 22:9.
(24) The law of the birthright, Ge 25:33.
(25) The law of anointing with oil, Ge 28:18. 31:13.
(26) The obligation of vows, Ge 28:20-22. 31:13.
(27) The law against idolatry (implied in the word “dominion”), Ge 1:26. 31:32, 35.
(28) The law of uncleanness, Ge 31:35.
(29) The law against marriage between circumcised and uncircumcised, Ge 34:14.
(30) The law of ceremonial cleansing for worship, Ge 35:2.
(31) The law of drink offerings, Ge 35:14.
(32) The law of marrying the brother’s widow, Ge 38:8.
(33) The law of dowry, Ge 34:12.
(34) The taking of life for stealing, Ge 31:32. 44:9.
Dear A. Way,
In your most recent comment, you state:
Jesus did not command us to “turn the other cheek” in order to let others walk all over us; He gave this direction to keep any hot-headed followers of His (maybe Simon Zelotes?) from entering a conflict they could not win. Jesus Himself clearly used force when he cleansed the Temple of its moneychangers, and He used some form of whip in the process. It could possibly be He did this on two separate occasions.
Furthermore, Jesus commanded his disciples that he who had no sword should sell his coat and go buy one. Jesus, therefore, was NOT an absolute pacifist, but a realist.
.
You concluded your comment by saying:
I trust your God is the same as mine, and we agree on the essentials of the Gospel. Nevertheless, just as you believe my position is the majority position and mistaken, so I believe that on the issue of the Sabbath and the issues of Hell and Eternal Punishment your minority position is most mistaken. I believe I will have to create a new blog post here to help you understand the biblical position established by conducting Real Bible Study on these issues about Hell and Eternal Punishment and Conscious Existence after death. I have already thought of a good title!
But now, I must get back to my task of creating a much improved and greatly expanded cross reference Bible study tool. I am about to begin Isaiah 14 today.
To be sure the Law was in Genesis. It is just not spelled out as in Exodus 20. Thus I also believe the Sabbath was included in those laws just as the other commandments are also in Genesis. The point is your argument is not about the 10C, it is the 10C minus one. If you read Genesis 2:2 in Hebrew, the word rested is “shâbath”. The week was also established in Genesis, and the week was 7 days. So I see ALL 10 commandments in Genesis, not 9 as you see.
Jesus and the cleansing of the temple. You say he used force. Did he hit any person? Something very extraordinary happened in the cleansing of the temple, and as you said very likely this happened twice. See Matthew 21:12-13, for the clearing of the temple. Then immediately in Matthew 21:14-15, what do we see? The blind come to Him and the children came to Him. If your labor union can hold demonstrations, and the sick and children are not afraid, then you might have something. But that is not what happens in these events. Everyone gets scared. Not so with Jesus. Only the wicked get scared.
Luke 22:36. This is a ripe one. Can you give one example when a disciple used force? What was Jesus response? (Matthew 26:51-53) And Jesus said: Matthew 26:52 “Put up again your sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” And what about when the disciples asked if they should call down fire? (Luke 9:54 and following). The real sword the Lord wants us to pick up is found here: Ephesians 6:17.
I do not strive for unity. I want to know the truth.
Dear A. Way,
I am much encouraged by your statement, “I do not strive for unity. I want to know the truth.” That is very well said, and I most certainly share your thought about that. That is likely why I am not in the majority, as you suppose, but a very small remnant of genuinely Bible believing Christians who have no interest whatsoever in pushing a denomination, church, cult, or religious organization. All denominations and churches are man-made, and ALL of them are in error to a greater or lesser degree. Some are very close to the truth of the Bible. Some, like Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventists, are in such great error that they must be classed as false cults.
The truth we all need is found in just one place–your Bible!
You can only get at the truth in the Bible if you study it independently.
For the average reader, a plain text Bible is the place to start.
After becoming acquainted with the general content of the Bible by reading it through either consecutively or even better, by reading it in historical sequence by using one of the many available Chronological Bibles, then, or better, at the same time, read and re-read particular books of the Bible. I advise doing this with the shorter books of the New Testament first, starting with the Gospel of John.
Then move on to other methods of more detailed study. The best study method is to carefully and fully consult the cross references for individual verses that strike you as you do your daily reading. It is best to use the more complete cross references available in such sources as The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, or Nelson’s Cross Reference Guide to the Bible.
You will never know how much you are missing in Real Bible Study until you begin to faithfully feed on God’s Word daily for yourself, apart from any denominational or cult literature. God’s Word is perfectly plain, and was written to be understood (Proverbs 8:9).
Another aspect of Bible study is the study of Bible subjects. This can be done with Nave’s Topical Bible, Nave’s Study Bible, or The Thompson Chain Reference Bible. You may also conduct such studies by using the Subject Index and especially the Topic Number Index of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. That index is only found in the printed work, it was unfortunately left out of the software version.
Related to even deeper Real Bible Study is the study of Bible doctrines. That requires a Bible study tool of the caliber of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. Of course, you can study the various works on Systematic Theology, but they are subject to some bias in support of a particular doctrinal system like Calvinism, or the particular beliefs of a denomination or sect. You really want to get the truth directly out of the Bible. Even that is hard to do, because our English translations have some doctrinal bias built in. That is why it is necessary to use additional tools for Bible study. The Loew and Nida Greek Lexicon is a must if one wishes to avoid built-in translation bias in studying the New Testament and its doctrines. A further knowledge of Greek grammar is an absolute must. The average Bible reader cannot be expected to do these things, though if they were willing to give up such time-wasters as television and sports they could find adequate time to become very knowledgeable in all these things.
As for children being afraid of unions, I took my children who enjoyed walking the picket line with me and there was certainly no reason for fear or danger in the presence of the line of teachers I worked with, even on the picket line.
One of the major problems every administrator, boss, or manager faces is the failure to properly listen. This includes those who read what I write on this site.
The Bible cautions us to take heed what we hear. It also cautions us to take heed how we hear.
Back in the Old Testament there was a little Jewish girl (as I imagine it) who spoke up when Naaman was ill and let him know of where to get the help he needed to get well. One thing you can say about Naaman, though he was a ruler or official, he was humble enough to take the advice of even a young girl.
I shared such scripture passages as these when I created the printout I left on the desks of my three administrators. I did not just give the references, I typed out the full text of each verse I referred to. That way they had no excuse for not being able to readily read with ease the verses that applied to the problem they were having.
2Ki 5:2 And the Syrians had gone out by companies, and had brought away captive out of the land of Israel a little maid; and she waited on Naaman’s wife.
2Ki 5:3 And she said unto her mistress, Would God my lord were with the prophet that is in Samaria! for he would recover him of his leprosy.
2Ki 5:4 And one went in, and told his lord, saying, Thus and thus said the maid that is of the land of Israel.
2Ki 5:11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.
2Ki 5:12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.
2Ki 5:13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?
Naaman was a good man. He was willing to listen. He changed his course of action upon receiving good advice, even from lowly servants.
Now where are there administrators today who will do the same?
My administrators knew where I stood. They also knew that I always absolutely told the truth.
They were unable to get away with their attempts to avoid the truth or twist it. I called them on it!
The central administration likewise knew exactly where I stood, and that never could they suggest that I had not stood for and stated the truth.
The media is NOT telling the truth about the unions, especially teacher unions. The Governor of Wisconsin and several other governors do not need to gut teacher contracts of protections they provide teachers. It is a political ploy to gain political ends. In no case does it represent the truth.
I once thought highly of the Tea Party Movement. No longer. They do not stand for justice. They do not stand for truth.
What I have written does.
Jerry,
I work people from all the religions you names and many more. Most of the people I work with are very nice people. I have Mormon co-workers, Muslim, Catholic, various protestant and Seventh-day Adventist (they like the hyphen), and ex-SDA, and a number of Jehovah’s Witness clients. The people are not the problem, it is the systems.
On the subject of the Sabbath, I have studied this now since finding your site. And this study have produced a number of interesting findings, particularly with respect to the reformation. The reformers were pushing the Bible, and the Bible only. The catholic church’s position was the Bible and Tradition. Many catholics were nearly persuaded to go with the Bible and the Bible only. What was the sticking point? The reformers rejected the Sabbath! They kept Sunday and there is nothing in the Bible requiring the keeping of Sunday. Only the tradition of the catholic church is Sunday kept. This to me was an eye opening fact. What did Jesus say about tradition? See. Matthew 15:3-9. My conclusion, Sunday should never be kept in place of Sabbath. Either it is the 7th day, or it is no day. and I do not find anywhere that convinces me that the 7th day has been done away with, though you have tried. And Exodus 20 says – remember. Note, one does not keep Sabbath in order to win salvation. That will never work. One keeps Sabbath for who it represents and what he has done. God is the Creator and the Redeemer. Ezekiel 20:12 KJV Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
On the same thread – I am a created being, created by God. I am what I am; flesh and blood. There is no essence, a soul, apart from what I am. Jewish definition of the “nephesh”, translated soul in Genesis 2:7, means the entire organism, “even the blood in the veins”. Thus follows that the “dead know not anything” Ecclesiastes 9:5. And it follows then that when you are dead, you are dead, gone, nothing. Thus the end of the wicked is not an eternal torment.
If you think my beliefs are cultist, so by it. But I find them most consistent with the Bible, and the Bible only…
enjoying the discussion and learning alot from you. i think james 2./10 for whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. we dont keep the sabbath now because rom 10/3-4 christ is the end of the law for all who believe. i believe church is under the law of christ i cor 9/21 being not without law to god,but under the law to christ” what was the motive of the law? ”
do in order to be blessed”, under grace says, do because you have been blessed” eph1/3. we can learn from the law rom 7/12 wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy,just and good . i cor 10/6 “now these things{old testament} were our example,to the intent we should not lust after evil things,as they also lusted. rom 6/14 for sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace! we cant fulfill the law of christ in our own fleshbut it is by the work of the spirit in the believers heart eph 5/18, gal 5/16. praise the lord for the grace of god!
Ken, you argument about not keeping Sabbath because of Romans 10:3-4 does not make sense. I could use the same argument to now cheat on my spouse, and steal your car, because the law has ended. The law is gone. NO. Romans 10:3-4 is talking about ending law as a way to righteousness, not that it ever was! Christ is the way to righteousness.
Here are my notes on these verses, Romans 10:3-4
Dear A. Way,
Your source is almost correct. Of course, Almost is not quite good enough!
Leviticus 18:5 is God’s declaration, and your source seems to contradict it directly:
Of course, there is an “if” in there, such that no one but Christ has ever met the requirements for eternal life under this provision.
Genesis 15:6 and Habakkuk 2:4 reveal the other provision,
This is cited by Paul in Romans 1:17 and Hebrews 10:38.
The Holy Spirit by means of regeneration creates in us a new nature which the Holy Spirit via this new life enables us to keep the law of God as detailed by Paul in the book of Galatians, apart from any or all works of law. Anything else is a false gospel. Galatians 1:8. 5:4.
Jerry – Did you read what I posted? Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. Exactly what was said in my post. The law can not save. Christ is the way to righteousness. When we are regenerated by God we become doers of the law. Romans 2:13; James 1:25. Do do not do the law to be saved. You do the law because you are saved. And to arbitrarily reject one part of the law, because you don’t like it does not work.
Dear A. Way,
Yes, indeed, I read what you said, very carefully at that.
What you said was incorrect, and what you said again is still incorrect because what you said is not the focus of the New Testament.
You still miss the central point of what Paul has emphasized, namely, nothing avails but a new creature, or a new creation, the regenerative work of what we are when we are “in Christ.” Did you read what I said?
You claim that I arbitrarily reject one part of the law.
You have failed to comprehend the proof I gave above that the Sabbath is NOT a continuing obligation, and the Sabbath has been fulfilled completely by our Lord Jesus Christ. Contrary to what you affirmed, the Sabbath is a TYPE. Jesus fulfilled and completed that type; the Fourth Commandment is the only Commandment of the Ten which has been completely fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ both in His life and His death. The Sabbath has thus been completed.
That which has been completed, fulfilled, has been DONE AWAY!
Now tell me, good brother in Christ, just what is it you don’t understand about done away?
And notice what, specifically, was done away: that which was “written and engraven in stones.”
And just what is it that was “written and engraven in stones“?
The TEN COMMANDMENTS, of course, and most certainly, including the Fourth Commandment, about which you are so utterly focused that you lack the balance of Biblical New Testament emphasis, which proves your emphasis to be misguided, mistaken, and therefore false doctrine contrary to the very plain written Word of God!
Now obedience is clearly important. But true obedience comes not simply as our matter of “doing,” but a matter of heart obedience produced in our changed lives which is the result of our being regenerated by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.Why do you insist upon observing a fulfilled type, as if it continued as an obligation for Christians?
Your mistaken false doctrine and emphasis cannot explain why there is no word in the New Testament faulting any believers among either the Jews or Gentiles for failure to keep or properly observe the Sabbath. There is no word of command in the New Testament epistles or the history in Acts for believers to observe the Sabbath Commandment or example of believers doing so as a part of their new life in Christ.
Your emphasis contradicts the emphasis in the book of Galatians of not placing anyone again under the yoke of bondage, which is the Law in all its parts and forms. We are not under Law but under Grace. The Law came by Moses, but Grace and Truth came by our Lord Jesus Christ. That is the Christian emphasis in the New Testament. To harp on this matter of observing or keeping the Law for whatever reason is a species of judaizing, which is utterly contrary to the Gospel, as fully explained by Paul with reference to the problem of those who would impose the requirements of Mosaic Law on the believers in Galatia.
Did I just discover a mistake in the Bible, an error in Paul’s doctrine? Apparently, Paul forgot to include Sabbath-keeping on that list, if you are correct.
i have always liked rom 5/20-21. moreover the law entered,that the offence might abound.but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:!!!! 21. that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by jesus christ our lord. it seems like to me that some questioned paul on the emphasis on the grace of god in 6/1 he says”what shall we say then? shall we continue in sin,that grace may abound? what a great question! vs 2 god forbid!!! how shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? he expounds what that means in rom 6-8. the teaching of grace of god doesnt teach license! but just the opposite you want to obey in the power of the holy spirit!!! gal 5/16,eph 5/18
Grace does not teach license Ken. And the great moral code of 10 commandments contains 10, not 9.
Jerry – I have time for a quick reply. Take 2 Corinthians 3:7. You have completely misread the text! The text says nothing about the law passing away. It is the glory that is passing away. Do you not remember the story of Moses when he came off the mountain, how it face shown brightly that it needed to be veiled? That glory passed away. But the law still remained. The ministry of the Jewish system and Moses was passing away. The law was written in stone to signify permanence. See Matthew 5:17-18. The glory was not on the stone tablets, it was on Moses. 2 Corinthians 3:11 – same thing, the glory was passing away.
2 Corinthians 3:14 – the veil was done way. Seeing Christ in the prophecies and in the ceremonies described in the OT, lifted the “veil” from reading the writings. The Jews refused to recognize Christ as the Messiah, thus the veil remained.
Good brother – you must be clear on what was taken away, for again, I do not buy into your interpretation. These verses do not say the law was done away. Please re-read them.
You again wrongly look at the 10 commandments as a yoke of bondage. Matthew 11:29-30 AKJV Take my yoke on you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. 1 John 5:3 AKJV For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Dear A. Way,
Yes, it is immediately stated in 1 Corinthians 3:7 that the “glory” is passing away. But one must also take into account the immediate context which has reference to those stone tablets, which clearly signify the Ten Commandment Law, as being the “ministry of death.” That “ministry of death” together with the 10 Commandments are passing way, indeed have passed away, because though Moses brought the Law, Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ. Right at the very start of Matthew recall Jesus referred to one of the Ten Commandments, “You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU…,” thus exhibiting his immediate authority then and there over and above those Ten Commandments. He set a higher standard.
So, those of us who see that the Law has been abrogated (as a means for achieving holiness or righteousness) for the believing Christian are not subscribing to Antinomianism or to licence, but to the Holiness God specifies we must have, wrought in us by the regenerative change in us created in us by the Holy Spirit, Whose fruits we manifest if we are truly Christ’s, if we are truly “in Christ.”
From another site (http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=1585#comments, Post 38 by Cris Putnam):
There are a set of orthodox beliefs like the monotheism and deity and exclusivity of Christ that properly define membership. These are non negotiable:
1. God as Creator and Author of the inerrant Word of God.
2. God as Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent
3. God as Triune- Father, Son and Holy Spirit in perfect relationship.
4. Jesus Christ as the virgin-born Incarnate Son of God.
5. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life, working miracles and dying as the spotless Lamb of God.
6. Jesus Christ died as the sinless Sacrifice for mankind’s sin, was buried and bodily resurrected on the third day.
7. Salvation by grace through faith through repentance, not works.
8. Jesus Christ as the returning King in eschatology.
If any of those fundamental points change, then Christianity changes. For example, if Jesus was not virgin born, then He could not be the spotless Lamb of God. He would have to die for His own sins! A cult, on the other hand, changes one or more of these doctrines. They present a Jesus who is not the Second Person of the Trinity. They deny salvation by grace. They do not believe the Bible is the final and complete written revelation of God. Therefore, they add books that are viewed as equal to the Bible. They subtract from the Person and Work of Christ. They multiply the means of salvation- adding extra actions that earn God’s forgiveness.
A religion demands allegiance to a set of values.
A religion offers alternative gods, prophets or worship.
A religion offers other means of salvation than the Cross of Christ.
A world religion does not attempt to offer a redaction of Christianity.
A cult demands to be considered a mainstream Christian group.
A cult believes it is a redaction or correction of Christianity.
A cult believes it offers the corrected view of the Christian God.
Jerry said: Thou shalt not commit adultery, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU…,”
Did Jesus change the commandment? NO. What Jesus was showing is that the commandment must be internalized, to be on the heart and mind. Most people focus on the behavior – adultery. The behavior is NOT the problem! The behavior is a symptom of the problem. What needs to be fixed is the underlying problem and that is really what sin is. Sin is a alteration of how we are made, a violation of the law of our being. We have been changed. Behavior is the symptom. You do not even need to do the behavior. All you need to do is want to do the behavior. When we are made new, we will not even want to do it.
So no, Jesus did not do away with the commandment. He fulfilled it, he explained it. Just keeping the commandments, including the Sabbath, will never save you. You need a new heart and mind. A complete transformation, we need to be born again. The law has not been taken away. It is to be internalized. This is what Jesus will do to us, by faith in Him.
Again, I don’t care what you think about me, and I am not looking for unity. I could care less if you think I’m not Christian. I don’t buy the the world’s definition of Christianity. I do not disagree with your definition above, but there is much more. I’m looking for truth. And the biggest truth that is under STRONG attack is that God is the Creator, your #1. And the Sabbath screams, that God is the Creator. If you do not think that God as Creator is under attack, then where have you been? Even the pope has said that there is no problem with evolution. What?
Keeping the Sabbath will not save you. Not committing adultery will not save you. We are saved by faith in the one who created us. And when the law is written on our heart and mind, we will keep the commandments.
Dear A. Way,
If you truly believe the eight points of doctrine summarized in my citation from another site given above, you are surely on the right track in that regard.
But consider this passage of Scripture:
Notice, however, that this is the Covenant God will make with the house of Israel, and is a promise that actually is a confirmation of the provisions in the Abrahamic Covenant. It is as yet unfulfilled prophecy pertaining to natural Israel.
The principle of faith (Genesis 15:6) is shown to be apart from all law and law keeping by Paul in Romans chapter 4 and elsewhere in his writings.
Do note, however, the three points made by Cris Putnam cited above:
Even in Evangelical Bible believing circles there is a difference of opinion as to whether the Seventh-day Adventist Church is to be considered genuinely Christian, or is it to be considered a false cult.
Of course, it wants to be considered a mainstream Christian group.
It also believes it alone constitutes the genuine Remnant Church, the chief mark of which is adherence to the Biblical Sabbath; it believes this belief, among other things it believes, constitutes a correction much needed by the Christian church at large.
It also adds books considered authoritative sources of doctrine written by an inspired prophet of God, namely the writings of Mrs. Ellen G. White.
It also conforms to the materialist theology of Unitarians of a bygone age, who together with the Jehovah’s Witnesses of this age, deny the Bible doctrine of eternal (in duration) punishment, and the proper nature of man as being both spirit and body, the spirit of man clearly in Scripture being a conscious entity or being that consciously survives the death of the body. In answer to the question, “Does the Bible teach life after death, or does it teach life after resurrection?” they would affirm the latter to be true: life after resurrection of the body. Since this is a direct denial of what Jesus taught in Matthew 10:28 and in Luke 23:43, I believe this is firm evidence that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is a false cult.
I have met, worked with, and taught as students in public school many very nice, gracious people who are Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, Roman Catholics, and other groups that are not correct in their doctrinal beliefs in terms of what the Bible itself teaches. Mr. and Mrs. Toby, who visited my home regularly, sharing their Watchtower Literature, were as gracious a couple as one could possibly wish to meet. Many, if not most of these people I’ve met, worked with, or taught as my students, were exceptionally fine, moral people. That is no test of the correctness of their belief system or theology. Many very sincere people are sincerely wrong.
As an aside, students in my public school classes perceived me to be very much in sympathy with their faith. The JW students thought I was a JW. The Roman Catholic students felt strongly that I was Roman Catholic. Truth of the matter is, I simply tried to encourage them in their faith, especially when it comes to reading the Bible more than they do.
There may even be many genuinely saved people in some of these groups, especially among the Seventh-day Adventists, even though the doctrinal emphasis of their chosen faith is unscriptural and does not stand up to examination when one engages in careful, prolonged, independent Real Bible Study on Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island where no denominational commentaries or literature are to be had.
I am very new to the study of what Seventh-day Adventists believe. A couple who live not far from me left their Baptist church to attend the Seventh-day Adventist church. They shared a small stack of literature with me, and a video series, asking that I study the material. That was about two years ago or so. I am still studying the material. I am very experienced in the study of the Jehovah Witness theology, but not Seventh-day Adventism. I have been most surprised to learn that Seventh-day Adventists are materialists in theology. I have also been surprised that their understanding of Bible prophecy is utterly abysmal. I had thought, having read frequently of scholarly references to a series of works by an Adventist author named Froom in four volumes, that Seventh-day Adventists would be well informed on the subject of Bible prophecy, but I am learning bit by bit that they are totally misinformed about this subject. They fail to account for the significance and scope of the provisions of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants in their understanding of the prophetic message of the Bible.
In any case, Brother A. Way, you have been a great encouragement to my further study of these issues.
Jerry – I’m glad you are confident in your person interpretation of the Bible. Everyone needs to be convinced in their own mind. But I do not find several of your arguments convincing, nor supported by the Bible. Does that mean I’m always right, or even partially right? No. But the state of the dead is one that I think you are completely off base on. The dead know not anything. Ecc 9:5. Your idea of the dead make no sense with such stories as the resurrection of Lazarus. You believe in immortality of the soul, which is directly contrary to scripture. Only God is immortal, 1 Timothy 6:16.
My understand of what Seventh-day Adventists believe is that punishment is eternal. In fact, Sodom and Gomorrah suffered punishment of eternal fire, Jude 7. Where are Sodom and Gomorrah today? Do consider reading the book I suggested to you on this topic, from a Baptist I believe, Edward Fudge, titled, “The Fire that Consumes”. Look at the reviews on Amazon.
The convincing Bible verse is probably the best know verse in the Bible, John 3:16. Perish means just that. Gone. Not tormented alive for ever and ever…
If you are wrong on this point, then can I trust anything you write? One thing I do agree with you on, is that we need to study the Bible for ourselves.
Dear A. Way,
I indeed am confident of my personal interpretation of the Bible. But with one difference from you or probably most careful students of the Bible you have read or encountered: I am always ready to be corrected, and have, and will change my mind when I am shown or personally encounter in my studies sufficient evidence to warrant or require such change.
You have seen in my postings here, in answer to your comments, that I have indeed changed my mind as a result of increased understanding.
One change I’m sure you noticed: I once held that the Sabbath is a pre-Mosaic institution, based on my misunderstanding of Genesis 2:3. That is probably a change you do not approve. But I have most carefully and exhaustively studied the subject, and that is the firm conclusion I have reached for the reasons I stated in response to your comments.
I made a change in your favor immediately above when I acknowledged that “glory” is what Paul speaks of as having ended in 2 Corinthians 3:7, not the Ten Commandments, when Paul says “which glory was to be done away.” Yet there is some question remaining about this passage.
Note that “glory” is italicized in the King James Version because the word is not there in the original text, but must be supplied by the Figure of speech ellipsis. Nevertheless, in this case the ellipsis is properly supplied.
Looking further as I write this, I noticed that there really is a parenthetical statement in this verse, such that it could be set forth as follows:
That this is absolutely correct is confirmed for me by what Paul said earlier in the immediately preceding context:
Thus, in verse 6, Paul is contrasting “the letter,” spoken of as “the Letter [that] killeth,” in contrast with “the Spirit [that] giveth life.”
The “Letter” is clearly and unmistakably a reference to the Ten Commandment Law.
The “spirit” is clearly a reference to the work of the Holy Spirit in producing a new spirit, a renewed or regenerated spirit of life in us, the new nature received when one is born from above (John 3:3, 7; Romans 8:9, 11; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 2 Corinthians 5:17).
The contrast is continued in verse 7-8 when Paul describes the fruit or the result of the Law compared to the result of the Spirit:
First, the result of the Law is the ministry of death:
Second, in contrast, Paul speaks of the ministration of the spirit, which is utterly the sole means of spiritual life:
Therefore, in 2 Corinthians 3:7, the reference is absolutely to the Law, specifically the Ten Commandment Law, and this Law, NOT merely the temporary glory, Paul declares has been “DONE AWAY. The Greek text means rendered inoperative, or made void.
The ellipsis in the verse as supplied by our venerable Translators is an example of the Figure of speech False Ellipsis, or FS63K, False Ellipsis, Genesis +37:13 in The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. This instance of ellipsis is false because supplying it obscures the structure and flow of Paul’s argument and thought, and retaining it causes readers to miss the central truth Paul here proclaims.
Supply the necessary parentheses as I have displayed above, and remove the unnecessary ellipsis, and the meaning of Paul’s statement is clearly displayed for the passage from 2 Corinthians 3:6 through 3:11.
I must retract my concession, therefore, upon this much more detailed and careful analysis of the passage. Thus my original interpretation is correct, and in this post I have furnished a secure basis for it by observing the sentence and thought structure, involving a series of contrasts, which structures Paul’s whole argument.
Note carefully that in this post I do not contradict myself; I carefully wrote out my step-by-step analysis of this passage revealing the thought-process I employed. I changed opinion and retracted my concession as a result of your challenge, when I was forced to examine this passage more carefully.
This, therefore, is a prime example of what Real Bible Study is all about!
And I did it on Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island, consulting only the text of Scripture.
When I finished, I checked my results against the NET Bible, and found nothing there that would invalidate my analysis, though it is not what they convey in either their translation or its scholarly translator notes. You will recall that this particular Bible is permitted as a study tool on the Island because it is not a denominationally-based resource.
You are right – I do not agree with your assessment of the Sabbath. I think you may be ignoring the setting, the author and intent of the writing. You ignore Exodus 5:5 where it appears that Moses is re-instituting Sabbath worship. And Exodus 16 where it is assumed that the Sabbath was already known. Yes, it was codified in Exodus 20, but it clearly predated Exodus 20. And it is a hard stretch to assume that Exodus 16 was its origin. But I repeat myself.
And yet, you say the 10C have been done away with, and yet 9 are confirmed as still valid in the NT. (I say all 10).
Romans 13:9 AKJV “For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
The commandments are confirmed. They are not done away with.
1 John 3:4 – sin is transgression of the law? What law?
Do you think that I say that the only way to be saved it to keep the law? You do know that I deny that, right? We are saved by Jesus Christ. When we are saved, we do express the fruits of the Spirit. And these are what the 10C point to. I think you have no problem with 9 of the commands. It is the 4th that you deny. And we can go over and over this, but I do not see that the weekly 7th day Sabbath has been done away with. I do not see where any of the other 9 commandments have been done away with. I have presented some of my arguments, and I have found yours unconvincing, also with other doctrines such as an eternally conscious burning hell.
I wonder if your Robinson Caruso would have come to the conclusion that Daniel’s 70 week prophesy would have run for 69 weeks, then taken a indefinite break? I think not.
Dear A. Way,
You always raise fascinating points from Scripture to consider.
You must admit that the passages you quoted which validated the Ten Commandments NEVER mentioned the Fourth Commandment.
I have accounted for that omission in detail. You have made no accounting for it at all.
I guess the Pharoah of Egypt was more astute than me when it comes to understanding that the Sabbath had already been instituted, reflected in the fact that at Exodus 5:5, he accused Moses of finagling a means to secure rest for the people from their slave labor. Of course, nothing in Scripture asserts that a Seventh Day Sabbath Rest had yet been instituted.
Clearly the Sabbath was instituted in Exodus 16, as I pointed out before.
Robinson Crusoe’s head is somewhat spinning by your mention of Daniel’s 70th week. But perhaps after some independent study he will figure that out too.
The seventh-day Sabbath – did it even need to be mentioned? It was ingrained into Jewish life.
If Exodus 16 was the origination of the Sabbath, is was a very poor description of how to keep it. Exodus 16 only declares it is the Sabbath, and implication that it was already known. Just as Exodus 5:5 can be read as Moses and Aaron trying to re-institute (re-) the Sabbath, which pharaoh would not allow.
I read Leviticus 23 today. This chapter appears to describe the entire plan of salvation. The weekly Sabbath was just that, every week. The ceremonial Sabbaths in this chapter were added on top of the weekly Sabbath. The chapter also seems to have two introductions, verses 2 and 4! Verse 2 describe the weekly Sabbath, and 4 the ceremonial feasts. Verses 37-38, says these are the feasts of the Lord, besides the regular (7th-day) Sabbath.
There is a difference between the 7th-day Sabbath and the ceremonial Sabbaths. The 7th-day Sabbath was a memorial to creation (Exodus), and also of God’s deliverance from Egypt (Deuteronomy). The ceremonial feasts, laid out the plan of redemption. Passover, unleaven Bread, Pentacost (first fruits), Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and feast of Tabernacles (in gathering). Christ was the sacrifice that was pointed to and when he died, fulfilled the sacrifice. This plan of redemption was described in the ceremonial feasts. The 7th-day Sabbath is also described as “The Sabbath of the Lord”, i.e., the Lord’s day (Revelation 1:10). “Leviticus 23:38 NLT These festivals must be observed in addition to the LORD’s regular Sabbath days, and the offerings are in addition to your personal gifts, the offerings you give to fulfill your vows, and the voluntary offerings you present to the LORD.)” So Christ’ death – which days are taken away? The the ones that point to the plan of salvation and his great sacrifice which He performed? And/or the one that points to the creator, which is was, and is, and shall always be? The 7th-day Sabbath remains.
hello mr a way, i respect your opinion on your convictions about the sabbath, i want to be a learner of the word of truth the bible act 17/11. the lord encourages us to search the scriptures .the lord lead me to jerry smiths ministry of the word and the new treasury of scripture knowledge in 92 when it first came out and then the crgb was another help to my study of the bible. just a little sharing of my desire to know the truth jn 8/31-32. but i want to share something for you to consider in colosians 2/14-17 and i get excited about these vss and i am going to write the vs out in full. there a great blessing! col 2/14 blotting out the handwriting of ordiances that was against us,which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross:{one of the major of purposes of the lords death on the cross is brought out in mt 5/17 think not that i am come to destroy the law,or the prophets; i am not come to destroy, but to fulfill}. 2/15 and,having spoiled principalties and powers, he made a show of them openly,triumphing over them in it.{ijn 3/8 for this purpose the son of god was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil} col 2/16 let no man,therefore,judge in food, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day, or of the new moon, or of a sabbath day,2/17 now this is to me a key passage on this discussion of the sabbath “which are a shadow of things to come; but of the body is of christ”. and i would also add col 2/10 and ye are complete in him,who is the head of all principalty and power: this is what the i believe the bible is teaching on the sabbath. we now observe the first day of the wk i cor 16/2 “upon the first day of the week”
Mr. Ken – Where in the 10C are there ordinances? New Moons? Who wrote in handwriting? Moses wrote the ceremonial law and placed it beside the Ark of the Covenant. God wrote with His finger in stone the 10C. Writing in stone signifies permanence. There is the weekly Sabbath. Jerry contends that it was instituted in Exodus 16. Of course the 7th day was sanctified in Genesis 2:2-3. Jerry contents that the Sabbath was never kept before Exodus 16. Yes we find hints of it in Exodus 5:5, and in Genesis 29:26, 27 where it talks about the week. What defines a week? 7 days. Where did the 7 days come from? Creation.
Now – there are regular Sabbath days that occur every 7 days. But there are 7 more Sabbaths that were added to the Jewish worship described in Leviticus 23 and other places. Leviticus 23 has then all in a single chapter. These Sabbath were part of the Jewish ceremonial system which was a type of the plan of salvation, pointing to the great sacrifice that was to come. When Jesus came and died, the type was fulfilled and the ceremonial system was done away with. This was included the new moon festivals, and ordinances, etc. These are what were talked about in Colossians 2:14-16. The key is Colossians 2:17, these things are a shadow of the things to come, which was Christ.
Here is a Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian commentator on Colossians 2:17:
And Ken, even Jerry will tell you there is nothing in the Bible that sanctifies the first day of the week, to make it the Sabbath. Sabbath, is and always will be the 7th day. But to look at your quote of 1 Corinthians 16:2, what does the verse say? It is an exhortation by Paul to systematically plan, “as God hath prospered him”, to carefully check the accounts to give a portion of one’s gain. This take Paul would never have recommended to be done on the holy rest day. There is not ever the slightest hint here making the 1st day a holy day. Observing the 1st day of the week is in fact a direct contradiction to the 4th commandment. We are not to change times and laws (7th day to 1st day). See Daniel 7:25
mr way thank you for your points if i may share a couple of things with you that jerry has already pointed to. following the resurrection of the lord, there is no record in the new testament that the sabbath was observed by any believer, even in error. and also following the resurrection of christ,there is no injunction given to jew,gentile,or christian to observe the sabbath,nor is sabbath breaking once mentioned among the lists of possible sins. on the contrary, there are warnings against sabbath observance on the part of those who are the children of god under grace. gal 4/9-10 condemns the observance of “days,and months, and times,and years”. these are usually observed with a view to meriting the favor of god and by those who would be thoughtful of god at one time and careless at another. col 2/16-17. plainly instructs the child of god not be judged with respect to a sabbath day, and infers that such an attitude is reasonable in view of all that christ has become to one who is now of the new creation col 2/9-17. rom 14/5 declares that when the believer is “persuaded in his own mind ” he may esteem all days alike. this does not imply a neglect of faithful worship, but rather suggests that, to such a one, all days are full of devotion to god. also because of the fact that in the new testament the sabbath is never included as any part of the christians life and service, the term “christian sabbath” is a misnomer. in this connection it may be noted that in place of the sabbath of the law there is now provided the lords day of the new creation which far exceeds the sabbath in its glory,its privileges, and its blessing {major bible themes revised, j walvord, pp 290-291} i wanted to share this quote with you for consideration. i think walvord sheds alot of light on the scriptures we have been considering.
Ken, perhaps you have not read the book of Acts. Many times it talks about the people of God, the Christians, coming together on the 7th-day, the Sabbath. Not once does it talk about coming together on the 1st day specifically for worship. We can talk Acts 20 here is you’d like. Please consider, some examples: Acts 13:13-15; Acts 16:11-13; Acts 17:1-4; Acts 18:1-4; Acts 18:5-11. These were 7th-day gatherings. So your assertion that there was never worship on the 7th-day fails. There is no gathering specifically on the 1st day for just worship, and the activities on the 1st day were not in keeping with the Sabbath commandment, so there is no 1st day worship. Also, the “Lord’s Day” does not mean the 1st day of the week. Jerry will even tell you that that title was added perhaps centuries after Christ. The true Lord’s Day is the 7th-day. Please see Isaiah 58:13. The only day that was sanctified by God was the 7th-day.
As for Colossians 2 and Galatians 4, please see my previous post. These were not talking about the 10 commandments, but the ceremonial law. There is a difference from the ceremonial law Sabbaths which pointed to the coming Messiah, and the 7th-day Sabbath that points to the Creator.
I do agree with you that the term “Christian Sabbath” is a misnomer. There is “The Sabbath”, and it has never changed.
I’ve repeated myself a number of times on this, one does not keep the Sabbath in order to be saved. You can win salvation. One should keep the Sabbath because they are saved. Do you believe that the 10 commandments have been done away with? They have not, all 10 remain. Not a Jot or a Tittle will pass from the law. Matthew 5:18.
I do believe that there will be many saved that do not keep the Sabbath. But if you know about the Sabbath, and then refuse to keep it, what then? I don’t judge anyone. Let everyone be persuaded in their own mind. Romans 14:5.
mr way, thank you for comments, i wanted to share that the law, i am referring to 1]the commandments,ex 20:1-26 2] the judgments,relating to the social life and civic life of israel ex 21-24:11 3]the ordances ex 24:12-31:18, this mosaic covenant was given to israel and was temporary. when the lord died on the cross this covenant ended rom 10/3-4, eph 2/8-10, rom 3/21-31. rom 7/12 wh4 the law is holy,and the commandment holy, and just, and good. but all believers are now in christ as paul states in i cor 1/30 but of him are in christ jesus,who of god is made unto us wisom,and righteousness, and sanctification,and redemption.
Ken – if you have been reading this discussion, then you know that the 10C predated the Jews. While not spelled out in Genesis, they are all there. ALL of them. They were not special to the Jews. And when Jesus talks about the Sabbath, He says, “It was made for Man”. Mark 2:27. Man! It does not say that the Sabbath was made for the Jews.
Let me ask you a question, if sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), then what law?
hello a.way great question! jn 1/17 the law was given by moses,but grace and truth came by jesus christ. i cor 9/21 being not without law to god, but under the law of christ. the law of christ is been defined as the “system of rules or principles for conduct of the christian today. the christian today has been set free from the law of moses, he is nevertheless under law-the law of christ”. what is the purpose of the law of christ? sanctification, holiness,”to be set apart” the lord is holy and desires his children to be like him i pe 1/16-17, titus 2/12-13 for the grace of god that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,v12 teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world: i pe 2/2 is a favorite because if explains the how to spirtual growth ” as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby; all believers are indwelt by the holy spirit rom 8/9-11, and ” he desires to control us in other words to be on the throne of our lives” gal 5/16 this i say then, walk in the spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh, the spirit produces the”fruit of the spirit” which is christlikeness. i cor 1o/31 whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of god. christ
Jesus was asked about the Law. He summarized the law as follows:
ALL the law and the prophets hung on these two great commandments. But what are these commandments summarying? THE 10 COMMANDMENTS. As it is written:
The 10 Commandments remain. Jesus summarized them asa the 2 great commandments, which as it is written in Romans, is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You sahll love your neighbor as yourself.
It should be noted that in keeping with this Real Life application, this would preclude the use of violence, or anything that would offend your neighbor. Even if they are doing you wrong! Even is they were the Wisconsin legislature voting against the teacher’s union. A hard teaching Jerry…
It should be noted that in keeping with this Real Life application, this would preclude the use of violence, or anything that would offend your neighbor. Even if they are doing you wrong! Even is they were the Wisconsin legislature voting against the teacher’s union. A hard teaching Jerry…I did not state this right. “offend” should have been harm. Indeed, sometimes the truth will offend.
Dear A. Way,
There is much misinformation in the media regarding unions, particularly teacher unions.
What I have written is the absolute truth, based on my personal association with the teacher unions in Detroit from 1962 until 2001, a period of about 39 years, during which I was elected to the position of union representative at two different high schools where I taught.
The economic difficulties allegedly being resolved by union busting actions in Wisconsin and elsewhere have not been brought on by the teachers. Those actions are not directed at economic issues, but justice issues pertaining to the due process protection of teachers, a protection very much needed, and even with the union, very much lacking and inadequate.
The economic difficulties we currently face are brought on by the financial community, which has engaged in very risky and dishonest financial behavior which I already described. You can read further about that on the Market Ticker website I have alluded to several times.
Why is it that all 50 state Attorney Generals and the Federal Attorney General have taken no action on this issue?
Why is it that not one central banker and not even one mortgage company officer has been placed in handcuffs?
It was on the news locally for Detroit and Michigan yesterday that after some delay, an FOIA request was responded to by the Detroit Public Schools central administration which documented that the number of school employees receiving six figure salaries doubled between 2008 and 2009, even as the pupil population since I retired has been reduced by half.
You can be very sure that it is not the teachers whose salaries have been pushed into the six-figure range. IT IS THE ADMINISTRATORS! There was mention of a carpenter foreman who receives $140,000 in salary, if I heard correctly.
I have already explained and documented that the Detroit Public Schools is administratively top-heavy. Why would one high school require seven Assistant Principals?
I hear about teachers being laid off when the student population drops, but never a word about any administrators being given their walking papers. Perhaps it happens, but it is never mentioned in the news, and I never personally observed it to happen during my entire career.
These issues are not the fault of the teachers’ union!
The teachers’ union has been fighting for better working conditions, which benefits both the teacher and the students. Such conditions include the matter that classrooms be provided with the proper number of textbooks for the students. My last year or so of teaching I did have textbooks, sufficient to issue to each pupil, or else at least to have a classroom set. But then the administration required us to follow their mandatory pacing chart.
The teachers’ union has been fighting for justice in the treatment of teachers.
Have you tried reading your Bible for a while on Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island?
I suggest you do a study of the subject of justice in all its forms and aspects as it is taught in the Bible.
That is a broader emphasis found in the Bible than the issue you frequently reference regarding the Sabbath.
And Jesus included justice as one of the Ten Commandments when he spoke what he did as recorded in Mark 10:19.
Justice is the central issue Jesus will bring to the forefront when He returns at the Second Coming.