Jesus said he would, therefore he did.
But there are many false teachers who want to change the punctuation of Luke 23:43, where Jesus made the promise to the thief on the cross:
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Our final destiny is not to live in heaven forever, but on earth forever with our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is made quite clear by Matthew 5:5,
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Until then, however, if we die physically before the Rapture, if we are truly saved, we will go to heaven to be with our Lord Jesus Christ, who is surely there upon His throne.
No human beings are slated to live in heaven forever. There is only ONE hope and destiny for all those in this current age, often called the “church age” by theologians and careful Bible students, FOR there is only ONE BODY, and one hope of our calling, as Paul absolutely and unequivocally affirms (Ephesians 4:4,5). The idea of some that 144,000 are the only ones who have a heavenly hope, while the rest of us are consigned to a mere earthly hope is nonsense in terms of what the Bible teaches, and in plain language this view is utterly false doctrine, soul-destroying doctrine at that for any who believe it.
There are some who assert that there is no consciousness after death. In the not too distant past I visited Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island (my metaphor for genuine independent Bible study using a plain text Bible) and found evidence for well over a dozen Scriptural proofs of consciousness after death being the Bible’s teaching. The body is dead upon our decease, but souls and spirits are eternal: they do not die physically, only spiritually. The body returns to dust, the soul does not! They who have died in faith are very much alive, awaiting eagerly the resurrection of their bodies.
They who have died in unbelief are also very much alive and conscious, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies 1000 years after the resurrection of the righteous dead.
But the main point I wish to address is the absurd notion that Jesus told the thief on the Cross (note carefully the wrong punctuation), “I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.” To postulate such a response on the part of our Lord Jesus Christ is absurd because it is contrary to Greek grammar. As recorded in the Greek New Testament, this cannot be the meaning. Even though Greek has very little punctuation in the original manuscripts, it is most obvious in terms of the grammar what the punctuation must be. To argue otherwise indicates a lack of study in the field of grammar, or an axe to grind.
Jesus had no need to instruct the thief on the cross that he was speaking to him on that very day: that point is beyond the obvious! The notion that Jesus said that is most absurd.
Jesus was addressing the thief, correcting and instructing the thief’s hope of being in Christ’s Kingdom here on earth upon Christ’s Return in Glory. Jesus is asserting to the thief you will not need to wait until then, for this very day you will be with me in Paradise.
Jesus was NOT speaking to the thief about some future time on the earth when the thief would awake from an unknown length of time of soul-sleep at the resurrection to regain consciousness as if no time had passed, so seeming to be but an instant between the thief’s moment of death and his conscious presence with Christ in the earthly kingdom.
This concept can directly be proven to be utterly false because Jesus used the term Paradise, which is the same as what Paul calls the “third heaven,” when Paul was consciously caught up to the third heaven, which Paul absolutely asserts was Paradise (See 2 Corinthians 12:2, “caught up to the third heaven” and 2 Corinthians 12:4, “How that he was caught up into paradise”).
Jesus promised the thief “Today thou shalt be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43).
You may be certain, therefore, that consciousness continues after death, and that like that thief on the cross who trusted Christ and believed His work for him on the Cross, we too share in that blessed promise, if we have put our trust in Christ for our salvation.
If consciousness does not continue after death, Jesus could not have told the thief “Today you will be with me in paradise,” for if unconscious, the thief would never know he was in Paradise, and could not know he was with Jesus, according to His promise.
Where was Jesus when he was in the grave, from sunset Friday to Sunday morning? Was he in heaven? John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. He was dead on Friday, so he did not apparently go right to heaven that day. Nor on the Sabbath. Where was he?
Was God a not telling the truth when he said, Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die. Did they die that day?
What is the purpose of the resurrection at the end of time? Why resurrect is you are already alive?
What did Lazarus report after being resurrected by Jesus? Would it not be cruel to bring Lazarus back to earth from heaven, and then to again die at a future date?
What about those who have not trusted in the Lord, and have rejected Him. Do they go to a conscious burning hell?
I don’t know Greek, so I looked up this verse in a commentary. Here is what I found:
To day. Gr. sēmeron. As originally written, the Greek was without punctuation, and the adverb sēmeron, “today,” stands between two clauses which read, literally, “truly to you I say” and “with me you will be in the paradise.” Greek usage permitted an adverb to appear anywhere in a sentence the speaker or writer desired to place it. Merely from the Greek construction of the sentence in question it is impossible to determine whether the adverb “today” modifies “I say” or “you will be.” Either is possible. The question is, Did Jesus mean to say, literally, “Truly to you I say today,” or “Today with me you will be in paradise”? The only way of knowing which Christ meant is to discover scriptural answers to some other questions: (1) What is paradise? (2) Did Jesus go to paradise on the day of His crucifixion? (3) What did Jesus teach about the time when men would enter upon their reward in paradise? For an answer to the first question see below on the word “paradise.” For answers to the second and third questions see below on the words “be with me.”
Be with me. On the eve of the betrayal-less than 24 hours before making this promise to the thief-Jesus had told the Twelve, “In my Father’s house are many mansions. … I go to prepare a place for you. … I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (see on John 14:1-3). Yet, three days later Jesus informed Mary, “I am not yet ascended to my Father” (John 20:17). Obviously, therefore, Jesus did not go to paradise, and was not in paradise, on the day of His crucifixion. Accordingly, the thief could not have been with Jesus in paradise.
Paradise. Gr. paradeisos, a transliteration of the Persian pairidaêza, meaning an “enclosure,” “park,” or “preserve” containing trees, in which animals were often kept for the hunt. It was enclosed by walls and sometimes furnished with towers for the hunters. The equivalent Hebrew word, pardes, is translated “forest,” or “orchard” (see on Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5). In the LXX the “garden” of Eden is spoken of as the “paradise” of Eden (see on Genesis 2:8). In fact, paradeisos is common in the LXX where the word “garden” (Heb. gan) appears in the English translation (see Genesis 3:1; Isaiah 51:3; Joel 2:3; etc.).In the NT paradeisos occurs only in Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7. In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 “paradise” is obviously synonymous with “heaven.” The fact that Paul refers to no earthly “paradise” is doubly clear from the fact he equates being “caught up” to “heaven” with being “caught up” to “paradise.” According to Revelation 2:7 the “tree of life” is said to be “in the midst of the paradise of God,” whereas in Revelation 21:1-3; Revelation 21:10; Revelation 22:1-5 the tree of life is associated with the new earth, the New Jerusalem, the river of life, and the throne of God. There can be no doubt whatever that NT usage of paradeisos consistently makes it synonymous with “heaven.”
Therefore, when Jesus assured the thief of a place with Him in “paradise,” He referred to the “many mansions” of His “Father’s house” and to the time when He would “receive” unto Himself His own (see on John 14:1-3). Throughout His ministry Jesus had specifically stated that He would “reward every man according to his works” when He returned in triumph “in the glory of his Father with his angels” (see on Matthew 16:27). Not until that time will He invite the saved of earth to “inherit the kingdom prepared for” them “from the foundation of the world” (see on Matthew 25:31; Matthew 25:34; cf. Revelation 22:21). Paul taught that those who fall asleep in Jesus will come forth from their graves at Christ’s second coming (see 1 Corinthians 15:20-23) to receive immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-55). The resurrected righteous and righteous living will “be caught up together … to meet the Lord in the air,” and thus “ever be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The thief will, accordingly, be “with” Jesus in “paradise” following the resurrection of the just, at His second coming.
It should be noted that the comma between the words “thee” and “to day” was inserted by the translators. The original Greek text, which had neither punctuation nor word division (see p. 115) reads: amēn soi legō sēmeron met emou esē en tō paradeisō, literally, “truly to-you I-say today with-me you-will-be in the paradise.” The adverb sēmeron, “today,” stands between the two verbs legō, “I-say,” and esē, “you-will-be,” and might properly apply to either. Its position immediately following the verb legō, “I-say,” may imply a closer grammatical relationship to it than to the verb esē, “you will be.”
Obviously, in placing the comma before the word “to day,” the translators were guided by the unscriptural concept that the dead enter into their rewards at death. But, as set forth above, it is manifest that neither Jesus nor the writers of the NT believed or taught such a doctrine. To place the comma before the word “today” thus makes Christ contradict what He and the various NT writers have plainly stated elsewhere. Accordingly, the Scriptures themselves require that the comma be placed after the word “to day,” not before it. See on John 4:35-36.
Thus what Christ actually said to the thief on the cross was: “Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise.” The great question the thief was pondering at the moment was not when he would reach paradise, but whether he would get there at all. Jesus’ simple statement assures him that, however undeserving he may be and however impossible it may appear for Jesus-dying the death of a condemned criminal-to make good such a promise, the thief will most assuredly be there. In fact, it was Jesus’ presence on the cross that made such a hope possible.
Dear A. Way,
Thank you for a most detailed, challenging reply comment, with excellent questions. I’ll answer the first question briefly in this reply.
You ask, “Where was Jesus when he was in the grave, from sunset Friday to Sunday morning?”
This answer requires two parts. The first part must reference his physical body. It was the body that was in the grave.
We know from the Gospel accounts that the physical body of Jesus remained in the grave until early Sunday morning when Jesus was resurrected from the dead, exactly as Jesus himself predicted, exactly as had been predicted in the Old Testament, and exactly as Jesus had stated he had the power and authority to do (John 10:18). We know from what is stated in the book of Acts that the body of Jesus did not experience corruption during the three days it remained in the tomb (Acts 2:30, 31) in accordance with the requirements of the Davidic Covenant provisions Peter cited in his first sermon recorded in the book of Acts.
But (my second part of my answer) besides His body, Jesus also possessed a spirit or soul. The conscious spirit Jesus voluntarily dismissed from His body while on the Cross, dismissed his spirit into the Father’s hands (Luke 23:46).
Since the Father is in heaven (Matthew 6:9), Jesus in His spirit thus went to heaven immediately (see also Ecclesiastes 3:21. 12:7).
Upon resurrection, the spirit was reunited to the now transformed, glorified body brought back to permanent life, never to die again.
I believe this is fully consistent with what Jesus promised to the Thief on the Cross, for that very day they were consciously united in fellowship in heaven.
admin, what you suggest contradicts the Lord’s own statement.
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
As for the dead, also quoting Ecclesiastes.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 AKJV For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Dear A. Way,
You must know I have studied the Bible enough to know what contradicts and what doesn’t contradict what Jesus said and taught!
But since I am still learning, I always welcome your challenges.
The text at John 20:17 does not apply to the case at all.
The reason it does not apply is that when Jesus said “I am not yet ascended to my Father,” the Greek word for “ascended” can have reference only to the ascension of physical bodies, not spirits or souls.
A similar expression is found in Acts 2:34, “For David is not yet ascended into the heavens…” I have heard and read various interpreters make the same error here that you have made with John 20:17. The interpreters try to use Acts 2:34 to support the idea that David is not now in heaven, but is unconscious in the grave, awaiting the resurrection. But Peter was speaking in reference to David’s body (Acts 2:39, “he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day,” clearly spoken of the body, not the soul or spirit).
The departure of the spirit to God is never referenced by the word “ascension.”
Furthermore, John 20:17 in the Greek text does not say “Touch me not,” but “Do not detain me.”
I did not cite or reference Ecclesiastes 9:5 because it has no bearing upon the issue whatsoever, though this morning I did indeed give it a very close look. The passages I cited from Ecclesiastes do have a direct bearing upon the issue, which is why I referenced them.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 has reference only to the body. Once a person dies, his plans no longer come to fruition, he is no longer aware of what goes on upon this earth. Those who have died have no further reward in this life, and for the most part, unless they write something worth reading, or do something worth writing about, they are soon forgotten. This passage, therefore, has nothing to do with life after death, or conscious existence after death, only the cessation of the activities in this world of this life once physical death is experienced, what the esteemed author of Ecclesiastes comments regarding as “under the sun.”
Based upon these careful, informed considerations, I affirm that what I suggest does not at all contradict the Lord’s own statement, only what many mistaken interpreters have asserted about what Jesus said.
I am aware I am not your equal in your knowledge of the Bible. It sounds like you have spent many years studying it and I have spent just a few. That said, can you give me one example of consciousness after death, and do not try to use the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, as this is clearly just a parable. Parables have points, and the point of that story is clear. Lazarus when he really died, was resurrected after 3 days. We have no report of any awareness from beyond the grave. Also, I think I’ve asked this question before, why are there resurrections if people are not dead?
Satan said in the Garden that God had lied about death. Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die:
As for a soul, does it ever die?
Genesis 2:7 in the KJV reads: Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The term “soul” is the Hebrew word Nephesh, which a Jewish Rabbi had defined as the whole person, even the blood in his veins. We are nothing is not physical beings.
i have always been blessed by the thief on the cross vss i am going to look him up when when i get to heaven!! i really see myself like him b4 i was saved in a desperate sin situation, eph 2/1-3 dead in trespasses and sins,v2walking according to the course of this world,v3 children of wrath even as others, in vs 4 those great words of grace,”but god, who is rich in mercy,for his great love wherewith he loved us,vs 5 even when were dead in sins,hath quickened us together with christ,[by race ye are saved:] vs 6 and hath raised us together in heavenly places in christ jesus: what a blessing for us day by day that the lord came to seek and save the lost lk19/10. i was blessed by reading lk 23/42-43 in vs 42 to me the key word in this vs is” lord” in lk 18/13 is my favorite prayer in the bible god be merciful to me a sinner. jn 20/28 thomas answered and said unto him, my lord and my god,acts 16/30-31 tremendous promise vs30 and brought them out, and said, sirs,what must i do to be saved?vs31 and they said,believe on the lord jesus christ, and thou shalt be saved,and thy house, rom 10/9-10 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the lord jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that god hath raised him from the dead,thou shalt be saved,vs 10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. these vs bring home to me the fact he was believing unto his heart unto salvation, “thy kingdom” is another key term i think to he was refering to coming earthly kingdom like in dan 7/13-14 i saw in the night visions, and,behold,one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven,and came to the ancient of days, and they brought him near b4 him,vs 14 and there was given him dominion,and glory,and a kingdom, that all people,nations,and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion,which shall not pass away,and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. which brings to vs 43 and jesus said to unto him, verily i say unto thee,today shalt thou be with me in paradise. i believe to he was correcting him to assure him” today” thou shalt be with me in paradise. any time the lord used the word verily it was important like in jhn 6/47 “verily,verily”, i say unto you,he that believeth on me hath everlasting life. the same point hes making here. “today” is not in the future earthly kingdom but now! like paul says in ii cor 6/2 [for he saith, i have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have i succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold,now is the day of salvation. the same message applies to the thief on the cross and all who hear the gospel of salvation through faith in christ. the term “paradise” to me is explained by great promise psm 16/11 “thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore” [to be with lord in his prescence is paradise, fulness of joy]. this is a simple gospel to all believe on him john 5/24!
Ken, Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment: (v28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation.
Why look for the Lord to appear a second time if when we die we are still conscious with Him.
Dear A. Way,
The first example of a person who was certainly conscious and in heaven would be the Thief on the Cross, Luke 23:43.
(1) The lengths to which those of the materialist theological persuasion go to get around this verse demonstrate that they know what it means, and it destroys their whole case.
(a) Some will argue that being present with Christ in heaven does not mean the thief was conscious with Christ in heaven. This, of course, is nonsense. If this were the case, the Thief on the Cross would never know that or whether Christ had told him the truth when He made the promise that on that very day “Thou shalt be with me in Paradise.” By the account of those asserting theological materialism, the Thief on the Cross would not consciously experience being in the presence of Christ until the resurrection. But, the resurrection of the body takes place on earth. The Thief on the Cross, therefore, would never experience the consciousness of being with Christ in Paradise, which is clearly heaven. This would make the promise of Christ of no effect, which would be blasphemy.
(b) Some go to the extreme of changing the punctuation of the sentence, tampering with the position of the word “Today.” Greek grammar and usage forbid this. Henry Alford in his Greek New Testament makes a very brief but pointed caustic remark, saying in so many (actually very few) words that this effort to avoid what the passage means is absurd, and directly contradicts what the text itself says.
But I already gave the Thief on the Cross as an example, so here is another one for you, affirmed in both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures, and expounded by our Lord Jesus Christ himself.
(2) Abraham is alive and well. God affirmed to Moses at the burning bush that Abraham is alive when he said (Exodus 3:6), I am the God of Abraham.
(a) Jesus quoted Exodus 3:6 in his answer to the Sadducees when they raised their question about the resurrection. The point of His citation is obviously the tense of the verb: “I AM the God of Abraham.” This is emphasized by Jesus when He said, “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Therefore, Abraham MUST be living, though his physical body had long been dead. Abraham’s spirit upon death departed to God, not his body: therefore it is Abraham’s spirit that is a living person now in heaven.
(b) By mentioning Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob together Jesus is making direct reference to the Abrahamic Covenant. That unconditional Covenant promises TO ABRAHAM PERSONALLY a number of things which have even yet never been fulfilled (Acts 7:5). Since God cannot lie (Titus 1:2. Numbers 23:19), it of necessity is required that Abraham be resurrected from the dead to fulfill those Covenant provisions to Abraham himself. Thus the argument for the resurrection that Jesus presented to the Sadducees is unanswerable. And notice Jesus employed the very part of Scripture, the Five Books of Moses, to make His proof. Those were the only Scriptures the Sadducees accepted as valid.
(c) The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the body. They did not believe in conscious existence after death. They did not believe in angel or spirit (Acts 23:8). Jesus soundly criticized them, stating they were in error, even great error, for of the Sadducees, Jesus said, “Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God” (Mark 12:24). He emphasized the fact of their error again, saying “ye therefore do greatly err” (Mark 12:27).
Luke provides another bit of the interchange, reporting Jesus said “for all live unto him” (Luke 20:38).
Many today, though they believe in the resurrection, are otherwise every bit as mistaken as the Sadducees Jesus so severely condemned, for like the Sadducees, they are theological materialists, not believing in life after death, not believing in conscious existence after death, not believing in soul or spirit in the Biblical sense of a continuing conscious entity in man that survives the death of the physical body.
The Sadducees – did not believe in a resurrection. That is why they are sad, you see?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (v16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (v17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (v18) Why comfort one another with these words.
Why comfort one with these words? Why if they are already in heaven.
It makes no sense to me that if you are conscious in heaven, then you come down and rise from the dead. There can be no murder because the instant you die, you are not dead, but in heaven. Do we all long for that? Why would Jesus raise anyone from the dead. Doing so brings them back to a life of misery and sickness.
As for your comment 1a) above, is the thief on the cross in heaven and conscious right now? The evidence to me is no. He will be resurrected in the appropriate resurrection. His next moment of consciousness he will be with the Lord. It will be as if you died and immediately was with the Lord, and will go to paradise.
1b) you quoted one Greek scholar. Other Greed scholars disagree. I posted one example where the Greek context would allow moving the comma, and it changes the thought to be sure. If you preconceived thought is that we go straight to heaven, then sure, you want the wording to support that thought. So on this point, I guess we are at an impasse.
2a) Yes, God is the God of Abraham. And Abraham will be again. Abraham will have eternal life when he is resurrected.
2b) ditto 2a)
I’m glad you mentioned Titus 1:2 and Numbers 23:19. Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”
Are you telling me that Adam never died, that his consciousness continues? If so, then does that make God a liar? Adam sleeps in the grave. His next moment of consciousness, he will be with the Lord. Adam has eternal life. It’s his. 1 Corinthians 15:52 GNB For when the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised, never to die again, and we shall all be changed.
one two three
John 14:1-3 NRSV “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. (v2) In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? (v3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also.
Comments on these 3 verses:
1. Let not your heart be troubled. Or, “stop letting your heart be troubled.” The disciples were troubled because Jesus had announced that He would soon leave them (John 13:33). He now proceeded to tell them that His absence would be only temporary, and that His departure would be for their benefit. John 14 continues the conversational sequence begun in John 13:31 (see comment there).
Ye believe. Gr. pisteuete, which may be translated either “ye believe,” or “believe,” as in the next clause. In form pisteuete may be either imperative (believe [ye]) or indicative (ye believe). In Greek the imperative and indicative forms in the tense here employed are identical. Hence the context must determine the choice of mood. This allows for several possible combinations: (1) both verbs imperative, “Believe in God, believe also in me”; (2) both verbs indicative, “Ye believe in God and ye believe also in me”; (3) the first verb indicative and the second imperative, as in the KJV; (4) the first imperative and the second indicative, “believe in God and ye believe in me”; this last combination makes for a somewhat awkward construction and is the least likely of the four, but the other three are entirely consistent with the context. When the first element is regarded as imperative the admonition is in harmony with instruction earlier given to “have faith in God” (Mark 11:22).
The discourse of John 14 was given in the upper room prior to the departure to the Mount of Olives and Gethsemane (see on John 13:31).
2. My Father’s house. A beautiful representation of heaven. The word for “house” (Gr. oikia) may also be translated “home.” It is thus rendered in Matthew 8:6. The masculine form, oikos, is translated “home” in Mark 5:19; Luke 15:6; 1 Corinthians 11:34; 1 Corinthians 14:35. Jesus was returning to His home. Eventually the disciples would be permitted to join Him there.
Mansions. Gr. monai (singular monē) literally, “abiding places.” In non-Biblical Greek literature the word sometimes has the meaning of temporary stopping places. From this concept Origen drew his false notion that the mansions were halting places in the soul’s journey to God (see De Principiis ii. 11. 6). But such is not the scriptural meaning of monai. This is clear from John 14:23, the only other occurrence of the word in the Bible. Certainly the abode of Christ and the Father with the Christian is no temporary affair. The idea of permanence in monē is reflected in 1 Macc. 7:38, the only occurrence of the word in the LXX.
Our English word “mansion” is from the Latin mansio, in meaning almost equivalent to the Gr. monē. Mansio, as does monē, means “a remaining place,” “a place of abode.” The idea of a building of some size or pretentiousness does not attach to the Latin, nor, of course, to the Greek. That idea was a later development of the English word and the meaning should not be introduced into the present verse. Either “mansion” should be understood in its archaic sense of “a dwelling place,” or “abode,” or one of these meanings should be substituted in a translation of the verse.
The fact that there are “many” dwelling places makes certain of sufficient room in the Father’s house for all who heed the Father’s invitation.
I go. Textual evidence favors the insertion before “I go” of the Greek conjunction hoti, meaning, “for,” “that,” or “because.” If it is omitted there is a complete stop after the preceding clause, as in the KJV. If it is included there is some question as to how the clause that it introduces should be connected to the preceding. Several translations are possible: (1) “If it were not so I would have told you that I go to prepare a place for you.” This translation is ruled out because, according to John 14:3, such was one of the objects of Jesus’ departure. (2) “If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?” This translation overcomes the difficulty of No. 1, but introduces a new problem in that there is no record of Jesus’ having told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them. It is, of course, possible that such a statement was simply left unrecorded. (3) “There are many abiding places (and if it were not so I would have told you), for I go to prepare a place for you” (see C. K. Barrett, The Gospel According to St. John, on John 14:2). If textual evidence is held to be in favor of including the hoti, the last translation seems to be the most natural. However, the text is perfectly intelligible if the conjunction is omitted.
These words were designed to comfort the disciples. Jesus was leaving, but He would not forget them. He would eagerly anticipate His reunion with them in the Father’s house. In the interval He would prepare for the glorious home-coming.
3. If I go. This conditional clause was not intended to introduce an uncertainty. The word translated “if” (ean) here has temporal force, and should probably be translated “when,” as in 1 Corinthians 14:16; 1 John 3:2.
I will come again. The Greek expresses this promise in the present tense. This so-called futuristic present gives emphasis to the certainty of the event. The event is thought of as being so certain as to be already taking place. The reference is clearly to the personal advent of Jesus vividly described a few days earlier in answer to the question, “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (see on Matthew 24:1-3; see Matthew 24:30-31).
Receive. Gr. paralambanō, literally, “to receive to the side of” (see on Matthew 24:40).
Where I am. The disciples were directed to the time of the second advent as the moment when they would be reunited with their Lord. There is no hint here of the popular doctrine that believers go to be with their Lord at the time of death. Nor is this doctrine upheld elsewhere in the Scriptures. Paul also directed the attention of believers to the time of the second advent as the moment of grand reunion (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
Jesus has gone to His Father’s house. He is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When His image shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come. It is our privilege to hasten the day of glorious home-coming (2 Peter 3:12)
Dear A. Way,
You cite some very interesting information from a commentary.
What commentary is it?
Did you find it online?
No, it is not online. I do have it as a resource in e-Sword! I discovered that I can do some HTML formatting in the comments on your site and I see I messed up the formatting some and there is no way for me to edit.
I’m curious in what your opinion of the data presented.
Much of the data is very good.
In a brief commentary it is not possible to explain all that a reader might like to know.
Perhaps if I had access to the whole work I could access where it presents further material.
You mention it is a resource you have in e-Sword. Let me know where to get it (if it is a download) and I’ll be able to give it a closer look, unless it is a costly premium module. So far with e-Sword I’ve just downloaded the free resources.
Send me your email address.
Dear A. Way,
I sent you an email to the email address you furnished at this site, but have not received a response.
I see you have successfully accessed my email address for you sent a “Test Message” which I received successfully and to which I replied earlier today.
I look forward to hearing from you, and to further discussions here.
I am most interested in having access to the commentary resource you have utilized.
Dear A. Way,
In a reply above you raised the question of what use would the comfort offered in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 be if people upon death are already consciously in heaven? What need would there be for a resurrection?
The comfort Paul expresses in this passage has to do with the assurance Paul gave to the Thessalonians in answer to their question about the loved ones who had already died. They were worried that their loved ones would miss out on the privilege they hoped to have at the return of Christ to earth at his second coming, which, for all they knew then, might have taken place in their own day.
But there is another aspect to this comfort.
The Rapture provides the assurance that believers of this age of grace will not be here during the Great Tribulation.
This FACT of Bible prophecy is confirmed by the context, for the Day of the Lord during which the Great Tribulation will occur is ALWAYS mentioned AFTER the Rapture in every passage that contains reference to both events in the same context.
This FACT comes more into play when Paul had to correct some misconceptions the Thessalonians were under as a result of some false teaching pretending to be from Paul himself via a counterfeit letter, messages also alleged to be from the Holy Spirit, etc. as alluded to in 2 Thessalonians, the reason for Paul writing that letter.
I find it most interesting that the majority of interpreters seem to get some of these things backwards, probably because they come to Scripture with their minds made up already, rather than doing Real Bible Study to learn the truth straight from the source, as is advocated here.
Hope to hear from you again!
The rapture… 🙂
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When protestant Christians today speak of the rapture, they speak of a 2-part return of Christ. There is no such thing as a secret rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 speaks of the return of Christ with a SHOUT and tumpet (v16), there is nothing secret about Christ second return. Is this secret? Hardly! Additionally, this gathering together is AFTER the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3), not before as claimed by the “pretribulation rapture”. The trumpet mentioned also in Matthew 24:30-31 is in a context the describes a visible coming, “All the tribes of the earth shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory. Matthew 24 is describing the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4.
hello friend, it has helped me to follow some rules of interptation when studying a passage of scripture like admins post on rules of interptation, and one of the key ones is who is paul talking to when he wrote the epistle to thessalonians? i think he was writing to body of christ, which he expounds in eph 3. i believe there is distinction in scripture between jew,gentile,church i cor 10/32 thats why we must study the context when we study the bible like admin brings out in his exposition of rules of interpration. so many times we take meaning or our conclusions “to the bible” a deductive approach rather than study all the scripture evidence and drawing a conclusion on what scripture teaches which to me is the right one a inductive approach to the bible
Ken
admin posted one verse, and in context this verse is hardly secret, it is with a shout and loud trumpet. Right?
Dear A. Way,
In my past experience as a championship debater in high school at Cass Technical High School in Detroit, Michigan, I was a member of a two-person debate team that won the city championship that year against not only the other 21 Detroit high schools, but high schools from the surrounding towns and cities. It was a most interesting experience.
I earned my “Letter” in debate while an undergraduate student in college, where I participated in the debate program all four years, and also served as a debate coach and judge.
One interesting rule I learned about debate is to never challenge an opponent with an argument the opposing side has not presented! To do so would almost always cause the team doing so to lose the debate on that point alone.
Here, of course, we are not having a formal debate, but a quiet and hopefully informative discussion.
But you will note that you introduced the notion of “secret” when discussing the Rapture, not me!
Nevertheless, careful consideration of the context in 1 Thessalonians, and especially Paul’s discussion in 2 Thessalonians, furnishes almost incontestable evidence to demonstrate that the Thessalonians believed in a “Secret Rapture.” If they did not believe in a secret rapture, then how could they have supposed that they missed it and the resurrection, which is one of the issues of concern they had that Paul addresses.
Paul carefully taught the Thessalonians when he was with them and in his first letter to them that the Rapture precedes the Day of the Lord, therefore they would not be in The Day of the Lord when it came to pass.
Yet the false teachers were teaching the Thessalonians that they were in the Day of the Lord already (as the Greek text clearly states), and no doubt facing persecution and difficulty, they readily believed the claims of the false teachers. But if it were true that they really were in the Day of the Lord, then they were rightly concerned that the resurrection of the dead in Christ and therefore the Rapture had already happened without them knowing it. This was the basis for their extreme concern.
They could hardly have fallen into this mistaken notion if they had not believed, from what Paul already taught them, that the Rapture would take place in a manner that was secret, unobserved by the world at large, and, apparently, not even observed by Christian believers such as themselves who had supposedly been left behind (which was the mistake in their understanding that aroused their concern).
But Paul clearly states that when Jesus comes it will not be secret. 1 Thess. 4:16…
hello friend, who is talking to here? the thess church, and the hope of the body of christ, i jn 3/1-3,titus 2/11-14′ looking for that blessed hope,and the glorious appearing of the great god and saviour jesus christ” to the body of christ
Dear A. Way,
May I kindly suggest that you go back and read my comment again!
The “Coming” of which Paul speaks in 1 Thessalonians 4 in the light of the need for correction in understanding which prompted Paul to write 2 Thessalonians is without question in some measure “secret,” for the Thessalonians, very much alive at the time, were led by false teachers to believe it had already taken place and that they had missed it. The Thessalonians were led by false teachers to believe that they were already in the Day of the Lord, as the Greek text emphatically states.
It sometimes helps to remember that chapter divisions are man-made, and not a part of the original text of Scripture. They were devised, along with verse divisions somewhat later, as a help to making concordances possible.
This being the case, 1 Thessalonians 5 is the sometimes “forgotten” context of 1 Thessalonians 4.
The “Coming” which Paul discusses in 1 Thessalonians 4 is the basis for the comfort he alludes to in 1 Thessalonians 4:18, “Wherefore, comfort one another with these words.”
1 Thessalonians 5 continues the discussion, and introduces the subject of the “Day of the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 5:2) AFTER Paul had completed his comforting discussion of the Rapture in chapter 4.
As certainly as chapter 4 precedes chapter 5, so certainly the Rapture precedes the Day of the Lord.
The Great Tribulation is included within the Day of the Lord.
Therefore, the Rapture MUST PRECEDE the Day of the Lord and the Great Tribulation.
Back on December 21 A. Way wrote in a comment above,
In context, just who is it that actually hears and responds to that SHOUT?
Clearly, it is not all the dead.
Many religious groups and teachers wrongly teach that the resurrection of the just and the unjust takes place simultaneously.
That is not what the New Testament teaches.
That is not what the Old Testament teaches.
Therefore, the SHOUT must be audible only to the “dead in Christ.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16 also speaks of “the voice of the archangel.” Just who hears that voice? Only the “dead in Christ,” NOT all the dead.
If these sounds are audible to anybody, they are audible only to “they that are Christ’s at his coming” (1 Corinthians 15:23).
And what about “the trump of God”?
This phrase involves a frequently used figure of speech in the Bible (Antimereia, see New Treasury notes at 1 Chronicles 16:2 and Genesis 6:2, where the Divine Name is used as an adjective denoting “great”), so the Trump described here, like the voice, and the shout, are most emphatically very loud, but necessarily in context heard only by those to whom it is directed. This is certain by the hermeneutical principle regarding necessary inference. That this is a most valid principle is readily seen by most when confronted with the question, Does the Bible teach the doctrine of the Trinity? Clearly it does, as a matter of necessary inference.
Thus, the Pre-tribulation Rapture is most definitely taught in Scripture and understood by those who know how to do the kind of Real Bible Study advocated here. It requires the careful comparison of Scripture with Scripture, and drawing proper conclusions and making valid inferences from the evidence in the Bible itself.
admin – question – is the second coming of Christ a two-part process?
1) pre-tribulation rapture
2) post tribulation coming?
Or is the second coming of Christ – one, single event?
How do you read?
In terms of what genuine believers experience, the Second Coming is indeed in two stages separated by an unknown period of time.
The first stage is the Pre-tribulation Rapture for His saints.
The final stage is His Post-tribulation coming with all His saints.
But the world of unbelievers will probably only know about the final stage, and many of them will not welcome it.
Good Bible believing students and scholars differ much on these and related issues.
More of them would likely be in closer agreement if they had done their Bible study homework first, using the principles advocated here for Real Bible Study!
2 Timothy 3:12 Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Nice verse–but how does it pertain to this discussion?
One must distinguish things that differ in order to do Real Bible Study.
Persecution and tribulation in general are to be distinguished from the Great Tribulation, which Jesus spoke of as a one-of-a-kind event of utterly unprecedented severity, never to be repeated.
Many believe that the righteous will not pass through the time of tribulation. I don’t read that in the Bible.
Dear A. Way,
May I gently suggest that the reason you “don’t read that in the Bible” is twofold: (1) you are looking for what is not there, because this is not what is asserted; (2) once you understand what is being asserted, you will then have to read in the right places, and you will see it is there.
One must always be careful to distinguish carefully things which seem to be alike but actually are different.
Believing that the righteous will not pass through the time of tribulation is an incorrect statement of the Bible doctrine I am affirming.
The Bible makes it quite plain that all believers will suffer some degree of tribulation, difficulty, or persecution.
You can readily find the Scripture support for this by following the cross references for the very passage you gave, 2 Timothy 3:12.
But the Bible is equally clear that believers of this age of grace will not suffer the trials of the Great Tribulation.
You can find the Biblical support for this truth by following the cross references associated with such passages as Zephaniah 2:3, key word “hid,” in the New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. Some cross references are given in the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge for this key word, but they are not nearly as complete.
Additional Bible evidence can be found at the cross references given at Habakkuk 3:16 at the key words “that I might rest” in the New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. Again, though some references are given for these keywords in the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, they are not nearly as complete.
There will be believers in that future age present upon this earth who will endure the Great Tribulation. Those believers here upon this earth at that time are not a part of the Church of this Age of Grace that is on this earth now.
admin – I humbly submit that there have been several ways to interpret the events of the last days. Because the righteous do not suffer the fate of the wicked does not mean that they are not present in the world when these things happen. As in the plagues of Egypt, the children of Israel were not spirited away, but protected from the fate of the Egyptians. That is not to say that they were also not affected by the various plagues, but as with the last plague, they survived.
Psalms 91:7 AKJV A thousand shall fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand; but it shall not come near you.
Did you by chance have the opportunity to review the article published on my site regarding this text?
-Dave
Dear Dave,
I most surely did review your article the very day you shared the link with me!
While your most scholarly researches demonstrate that there are scholars who disagree with my position, the position they and you take on Lk 23:43 fails because it does not “fit” the logic of the context as I have tried to carefully demonstrate in my post.
Nor does it properly fit the grammar of the Greek text, though your sources and those put forward by A. Way in comments above disagree with me. I am currently upgrading my knowledge of Greek and Greek grammar in depth, so it may be I shall be able to answer the position more completely from the grammatical standpoint, unless, of course, my further study causes me to learn things I had not encountered yet, and forces me to change my mind!
I have not (yet) posted the grammatical argument with accompanying Greek text here, though I did post such material on another forum. Perhaps I should post that here some time. I did not do so yet, because it begins to get above the heads of many readers, though I tried to keep it as simple as I could.
The point is, the resurrection (1) must be bodily by definition; (2) the resurrection takes place on earth not in heaven; (3) Jesus promised the Thief on the Cross that the Thief would be with Jesus Himself IN PARADISE, and (4) Paradise is asserted by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12 to be the same as the Third Heaven. Therefore the Thief on the Cross could not possibly await the time of the Resurrection (which I believe your view requires) to be with our Lord Jesus Christ, for if he needs to wait until then, he would never have the opportunity to be with Christ in Paradise, for at the point of the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ, all believers return with Christ (for they meet Him in the air, and descend with Him) to the earth to live eternally in His Kingdom, which is set up after the Great Tribulation is over. The raptured believers are taken to a place on earth where they are not only kept safe, but organized into Christ’s Kingdom.
Unlike what most of Christendom believes, the Rapture does not remove believers from this earth to the Third Heaven, but unites all believers here upon this earth with our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul discusses the Pre-tribulation Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, but Paul does not reveal where the believers are raptured to. But a careful study of the rest of the Bible does.
Jerry, you said:
1) the resurrection is bodily – agreed
2) the resurrection takes place on earth – agreed
3) paradise is heaven – agreed!
4) the thief would be in paradise with Jesus – agreed.
The rub – you say, “therefore” the thief could not possible wait…
You then make the assumption that all stay on earth after the resurrection. This is true and false. There are 2 resurrections. The first is of the righteous. This happens with Jesus’ second coming. At the second coming, the righteous, living and dead join Jesus in Heaven – paradise – for 1000 years. So, yes, the thief will be with Jesus in paradise, future tense. During the 1000 years, the earth is depopulated. After the 1000 years, the New Jerusalem comes down, and there is the resurrection of the unrighteous. Again, this takes place on earth as you point out.
Since Paradise is in heaven, that is assuredly where the Thief on the Cross went immediately to be with Christ, consciously.
Paul stated that he preferred to die and be with Christ.
Paul also said “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”
There is not one line in the Bible to suggest or affirm that believers will be taken to heaven at the Rapture mentioned by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
The text does say that Christ at that point is on his way to this earth, meets the saints in the air, and descends with them to the earth. The Greek text does not allow for the notion that Christ descends only as far as the air, meets the saints, and returns with them to the Third Heaven, or Paradise.
Therefore, there is no Biblical basis at all for supposing that the earth is depopulated for a 1000 year period, or that any Believers are slated to remain in heaven for such an interim.
Our inheritance is here upon this earth (Matthew 5:5). The Kingdom of Christ is upon this earth and lasts not 1000 years but forever (Luke 1:32, 33) in accordance with the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.
If you think there is Biblical evidence for 1000 years in heaven, feel free to furnish chapter and verse!
I’m sure Robinson Crusoe, were he to hear of something like this, would be scratching his head in puzzlement, having never encountered such a notion in his “three good Bibles.”
I’m not a debater as you claim to be. I sense a cleaver debating trick implying I have said things I did not. I never say that Christ’ Kingdom would never end, and never said that it would not be on earth. The question is of it’s start, and that is 1000 years after the very public, every eye shall see, second coming. This whole issue would require an extensive study of books of Daniel and Revelation.
Revelation 20:4-7 AKJV And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (v5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (v6) Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (v7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
This is not the final setting up of the Kingdom. The righteous have been resurrected and taken to Heaven, for 1000 years.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 AKJV Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
At the second coming, the wicked are slain by the brightness of His coming. The righteous meet the Lord in the air, and and are removed from the earth. The devil is confined to the earth for 1000 years, which the righteous reign with Jesus 1000 years. After the 1000 years, the final judgment takes place.
And just where does the action or event take place when it is said “they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years”?
I have already stated that at the Rapture the living, transformed believers are not taken to the Third Heaven, or Paradise. The Greek text asserts Christ meets them in the air and then continues to earth with them. See the notes I placed on this passage in The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge for the details.
“The wicked” that is slain by the brightness of His coming in 1 Thessalonians 2:8 has reference to the Wicked One, or the Antichrist. It does not have reference to “all the wicked.”
Christ’s Kingdom is never said to be in heaven. Christ’s Kingdom takes place only upon this earth, where our eternal inheritance is, Matthew 5:5.
The position you seem to be presenting appears to be that of the school of Amillennialism. If so, that position is directly contrary to the teaching of the Bible.
The Millennium takes place on this earth.
The Kingdom of God takes place on this earth, Matthew 8:11.
The Kingdom of God is identical with the Kingdom of Heaven.
But my prior comment was designed to affirm that the length of the Reign of Christ on this earth is not confined to 1000 years, for numerous passages of Scripture affirm His Kingdom lasts forever: Daniel 7:13, 14. Luke 1:32, 33. Revelation 11:15.
Scripture also affirms that this earth abides forever and will not perish or be destroyed.
These things must be so in order for God to fulfill to Abraham and David the promises he made to them in the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.
In reference to the thief on the cross:
John 3:13 AKJV And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
That is Jesus talking. I accept his word.
It is always most important to accept the word of our Lord Jesus Christ on any matter He addresses!
The problem is, we must understand His word correctly.
I already discussed above that the word “ascend” is never used in reference to spirits or souls, only bodies.
Therefore, with regard to those who have already died, this text in John 3:13 says nothing to suggest they cannot be with God, and now also with Christ, immediately upon death.
The evidence in Scripture is most abundant that the Bible teaches conscious existence after death. So far I presented you with the Thief on the Cross. I also at length presented you with the example of Abraham. I also cited Luke’s account which adds the further comment not found in Mark or Matthew, “for all live unto him.” Surely that statement plainly asserts that all who have died physically are still alive in spirit, and those who died as believers are enjoying the presence and fellowship of God and of Christ consciously. That statement (“for all live unto him,” Luke 20:38), too, is Jesus talking. I accept his word!
In the context of John 3, Jesus is explaining to his audience that He himself is the only one who can testify of these heavenly things, for He is the only one who has come down from heaven to do so. But notice, He refers to Himself as the Son of Man, a distinctly Messianic Title (See, for example, Daniel 7:13, 14), and that He states while present and talking to those before Him that the Son of Man is simultaneously in heaven. Some would argue that the King James Version is following a faulty Greek text here. Dr. Scrivener in his two volume Introduction, and Dean Burgon, both argue forcefully to the contrary. I have given this information in my note at John 3:13 in The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge.
Jerry – consider the context of Luke 20:38 – it is talking about those resurrected.
Luke 20:34-38 AKJV And Jesus answering said to them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: (v35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: (v36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (v37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calls the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. (v38) For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him.
Dear A. Way,
You do indeed do well to call attention to the context.
But the verse I cited, verse 38, stipulates “For he IS not a God of the dead, but of the living: for ALL LIVE to him.”
It does not say “will live to him.” Thus, Jesus is claiming (at the time He was speaking) that all who have died of the faithful “are living unto him.”
Checking the parallel accounts in Matthew and Mark, it is also very clear that Jesus said that God said to Moses, “I am the God of Abraham…” and said there, like in Luke, that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Given this statement, how could God be the God of Abraham if Abraham were dead?
And if Abraham were dead, then what is the point of saying “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living?” If God is the God of the living, and if all live unto him, in what sense could God be the God of the living if Abraham has ceased to exist because he was dead and buried long ago?
And how does the statement of or to Moses show “at the bush” that there will be a resurrection, that “Now that the dead are raised…”?
As long as we are talking about Abraham, consider an additional Old Testament passage which I believe has some bearing upon this issue:
Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
I wonder what sense it makes to say “though Abraham be ignorant of us” if it is merely assumed that Abraham is dead with no continuing conscious existence of the spirit in heaven with God?
Searching the Scriptures carefully with a good source of plentiful cross references could well lead you to the passage at Genesis 25:8 which relates to the death of Abraham:
Gen 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
The expression “was gathered to his people” does not relate to burial, for this was not so: Abraham’s “people” dwelt at this time in Haran, and he was buried at Hebron. Besides which, the fact of burial is here, and in many other places, specified over and above the fact, here repeatedly expressed, of death (see ver. 17. Ge 35:29. 49:33. Nu 20:26. Dt 32:50). The only assignable sense, therefore, is that of reference to a state of further personal existence beyond death: and the expression thus forms a remarkable testimony to the O.T. belief in a future state (Henry Alford, The Book of Genesis and Part of the Book of Exodus, pages 111-112).
Yes, he is the God of Abraham, just as Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be resurrected, God is their God.
All this sounds like what the devil said to Eve in the Garden, you will not surely die. (Genesis 3:4). Because of Adam’s sin, death passed to all men. (Romans 5:12). All die and go into the grave. Acts 24:15 AKJV And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. 1 Corinthians 15:22 AKJV (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. John 5:28-29 AKJV Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.
If you theory is right, then at death we hear His voice, this last verse is meaningless.
Revelation 20:6 AKJV Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression–“the wages of sin.” (Romans 6:23)
Psalms 37:10 AKJV For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Obadiah 1:16 AKJV For as you have drunk on my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yes, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
David declared that man is not conscious in death. Psalms 146:4 AKJV His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Solomon has the same testimony: Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 AKJV (5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:10 AKJV Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go.
Hezekiah praised God for giving him 15 more years! Why? Isaiah 38:18-19 AKJV For the grave cannot praise you, death can not celebrate you: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for your truth. (19) The living, the living, he shall praise you, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known your truth.
Popular theology represents the righteous dead as in heaven, entered into bliss and praising God with an immortal tongue; but Hezekiah could see no such glorious prospect in death. With his words agrees the testimony of the psalmist: Psalms 6:5 AKJV For in death there is no remembrance of you: in the grave who shall give you thanks? Psalms 115:17 AKJV The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Peter on the Day of Pentecost declared that the patriarch David “is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.” “For David is not ascended into the heavens.” Acts 2:29, 34. The fact that David remains in the grave until the resurrection proves that the righteous do not go to heaven at death. It is only through the resurrection, and by virtue of the fact that Christ has risen, that David can at last sit at the right hand of God.
Paul said: “If the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.” (1 Corinthians 15:16-18). If for four thousand years the righteous had gone directly to heaven at death, how could Paul have said that if there is no resurrection, “they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished”? No resurrection would be necessary.
Many of the reformers did not believe in an immortality of the soul. Tyndale, referring to the state of the dead, declared: “I confess openly, that I am not persuaded that they [the dead] be already in the full glory that Christ is in, or the elect angels of God are in. Neither is it any article of my faith; for if it were so, I see not but then the preaching of the resurrection of the flesh were a thing in vain.”
John 14:2-3 AKJV In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Why would Jesus say this if we go to heaven when we die? Makes no sense to me.
But if the righteous dead are already enjoying the bliss of heaven, why is there a future judgment?
Job 14:10-12 AKJV But man dies, and wastes away: yes, man gives up the ghost, and where is he? (11) As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decays and dries up: (12) So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Speaking of the dead: Job 14:21 AKJV His sons come to honor, and he knows it not; and they are brought low, but he perceives it not of them.
John 11:11 AKJV These things said he: and after that he said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Was not Lazarus with God if indeed that is what happens when you die, how terrible to bring him back to earth. But I think I argued this already…
The dead “sleep”. They are awaken by the trump of God: 1 Corinthians 15:52-54 AKJV (v52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (v53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (v54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
And when they awake they shout!!! 1 Corinthians 15:55 AKJV (v55) O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?
Dear A. Way,
Thank you for a most intriguing post, full of good Biblical detail.
But first I would point to your first statement:
By your theology, as repeatedly and carefully expressed in your posts so far, you cannot legitimately make this statement.
Why? Because you have failed to distinguish the tenses of the verbs employed in the assertion of our Lord Jesus Christ, as well as God Himself in the Old Testament which Jesus cites.
You cannot logically or Biblically affirm at the same time that:
(1) Abraham is dead and buried and has no conscious existence at this time, and
(2) God IS the God of Abraham, when Jesus plainly declared that
(3) God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
By your position, to be grammatically correct, you must affirm “God WAS the God of Abraham [while Abraham was still alive physically], and will be again upon Abraham’s bodily resurrection, but cannot now be Abraham’s God while Abraham is dead, for God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
Does this hopefully corrected restatement meet with your theological approval?
We are created creatures. Flesh and blood. Without flesh and blood, we are nothing. That is why Christians, at least in the beginning, looked forward to the resurrection. In your theology, we should look forward to death. There is no essence, a soul, that is separate from the body. I have quoted how David, Solomon, Hezekiah, and others know there is no consciousness in death. The reality is that there will be a resurrection. It is a fact. Jesus has risen from the dead! If we are in Christ Jesus, we have assurance of eternal life, it is ours. In death, the next moment of consciousness we will be with the Lord, when the trump of God sounds, and we come out of the grave. So Jesus can say, God IS the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. It is a reality.
Are you asserting that as created beings we are only flesh and blood?
Psalms 139:13-14 ESV For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. (v14) I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.
Psalms 19:1 AKJV The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork.
Psalms 138:8 NRSV The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O LORD, endures forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands.
Deuteronomy 32:4 AKJV He is the Rock, his work is perfect
Yes, we are created beings. Are you suggesting we are not?
Dear A. Way,
I certainly believe with you that we are created beings.
I do not believe in evolution!
But what I am asking is, are we created beings consisting only of flesh and blood?
In other words, were human beings created by God with a non-material aspect to their being? Or are they only flesh and blood, or material beings?