I just encountered an interesting article titled “Christian Leaders: Hell Should Not Be Sugar Coated” at the following link:
http://global.christianpost.com/news/christian-leaders-hell-should-not-be-sugar-coated-59639/
After the article was a comment by a poster named Bob ELdridge:
So many teach a god of hate and revenge, excusing their own continuous blasphemy as they deny the love of God, without the slightest bit of fear, failing to keep the commandment to prove all things and continue to speak of how clear the scriptures prove their doctrines, while being completely without understanding. Praise be to God for ALL will be brought to the Truth, every knee will bow to Christ, the Truth, because it is the will of God and no man can stay His hand.
This comment, in brief, is standard fare for those who do not believe in eternal unending punishment in the Lake of Fire, which is what the Bible warns is the certain fate of all who are unsaved.
Notice, too, the immediate focus upon the love of God, as if this were His only attribute.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Consider John 3:36,
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The Bible obviously speaks not only of the love of God, but the wrath of God.
Talk about proving all things, it is time posters like Mr. Bob Eldridge and those who share his view, like Pastor Rob Bell, settle down and do their homework first and learn what the Bible itself actually teaches.
To arrive at the full truth of what the Bible teaches, we must get our doctrine from the Bible, not our church, denomination, organization, or favorite teacher.
We must carefully consider all the evidence, not just the portion of evidence we like.
And we need to be humble enough to accept what God clearly declares He will do, and not re-write the script to suit our own sensibilities.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
In one sentence at Matthew 25:46 Jesus described the eternal destiny of both the saved and lost. The lost “go away into everlasting punishment.” The saved, or righteous, go away into life eternal.
The terms “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal” translate the same Greek word in the original text.
This logically means that the duration of life eternal is the same as the duration of everlasting punishment.
This Biblical proof fully answers the doctrinal error expressed by Mr. Bob Eldridge and Pastor Rob Bell and anyone else who holds such a mistaken view.
Exactly!! The punishment is eternal.
Romans 2:4 ESV Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
If God’s kindness does not draw you to repentance, the terrors of an eternal conscious hell will not drive one to repentance.
Did Christ die the death of a sinner? Was it awful? Was there torment? ABSOLUTELY. Was it due to the physical crucifixion? That was minor compared to the death that sin causes. Christ was dying in Gethsemane before the crucifixion. Isaiah 52:14 ESV As many were astonished at you– his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind–
And we think it is God punishing Him, as He will punish sinners in the end. Isaiah 53:4 ESV Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
See, we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God! We thought it was punishment sent by God. But it is NOT. That is one of main points that the death of Christ showed. Romans 3:25-26 GSNT For God showed him publicly dying as a sacrifice of reconciliation to be taken advantage of through faith. This was to vindicate his own justice (for in his forbearance, God passed over men’s former sins)— 26 to vindicate his justice at the present time, and show that he is upright himself, and that he makes those who have faith in Jesus upright also. Romans 5:10 GNB We were God’s enemies, but he made us his friends through the death of his Son. Now that we are God’s friends, how much more will we be saved by Christ’s life!
How did His death make us His friends? Because is showed the real cause of the destruction of sinners, and it is not God.
Romans 1:18 ESV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
What is His wrath? Continue reading in Romans 1! God’s wrath is letting people go, giving them up. Letting the reap the natural consequences that sin brings. The wages of SIN is death, Roman 6:23. It is not torture or execution by God. James 1:13-15 ESV Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Hosea 4:17 ESV Ephraim is joined to idols; leave him alone. God’s wrath!
So yes, do not sugar coat the death of the wicked. Is is awful. Horrible. Also, do not lie about God’s involvement. Do not lie that God will say, “love me, or I’ll torture you in a conscious hell for eternity”. As above, it is God’s kindness that draws us to repentance. The lie of hell only makes rebels.
Dear A. Way,
You are clearly part of the “sugar-coating” crowd!
Furthermore, you must know that you are equivocating when you say:
What you mean by eternal is not what the Bible means by eternal.
Does the Bible lie about hell?
Does or did Jesus lie about hell?
Your viewpoint clearly suppresses the truth, and suppression of the truth is condemned by the very verse you cite, Romans 1:18,
Romans 1:18 ESV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
A doctrine which can only be supported by equivocation is surely an example of unrighteousness, because it makes God a liar.
The is the real question – what is the truth. The truth is Good News. I’m am not equivocating in the least. The Bible clearly said, the wages of sin is death, and I agree. The final punishment, death, is eternal. It is you that says, the people really do not die, they continue to have consciousness for eternity, and suffer. I will not sugar coat hell, because hell as believed by many that call themselves Christians is a lie and does not exist. You can’t sugar coat something that does not exist. It is Satan that called God a liar right from the beginning, and he is the father of lies, John 8:44.
God is a God of love. Oh, you will say, he is not only loving, but he is just. Yes, His judgment are right, if you sin, you will die.
Dear A. Way,
It is just amazing that sometimes you are right about things many, if not most, students of the Bible are mistaken.
You appealed to Isaiah 53:4 ESV Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
You most correctly explained Isaiah 53:4 when you said “See, we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God! We thought it was punishment sent by God. But it is NOT. That is one of main points that the death of Christ showed.”
God did not punish Christ on the Cross, or any other time. That would make God the Father out to punish God the Son, which would be impossible and would violate the Trinity. This is a central concept vital to properly understanding the Atonement.
Isaiah 53:4 asserts that we esteemed Christ smitten by God, but if we so regarded Christ’s death this way, we are most mistaken. In this case though, in context and in fulfillment, the “we” has reference to the leaders of the Jewish nation at the time of Christ who mocked Him, that “he could save others, now let him save himself,” showing their disdain for His ministry and Person, and surely the utter lostness of their own souls.
On this point, the Calvinists have it all wrong, for they believe in the Penal Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement. They think Jesus was punished on the Cross for our sins. The Bible teaches Christ bore our sins, but He was not punished for our sins. God did not need to be appeased: that is a pagan concept not found in the Bible. The Bible teaches the Priestly-Sacrificial Atonement. Jesus himself is the Atonement, and the Atonement is He (1 John 2:1).
Now, as for the subject of Hell (or more accurately, the Lake of Fire), you are in error in your understanding of that.
In part, it may be that your error is based on the mistaken notion that we must somehow justify the ways of God to man, which is a species of the rationalistic argument, and is unscriptural.
What proves you utterly wrong right from the start is that you cannot use “eternal” with the meaning it MUST have in Matthew 25:46 without resorting to equivocation.
Equivocation in this meaning and application of the word is to use a term which has two meanings in a sense favorable to your view which contradicts the meaning in either the text of Scripture being discussed (here, Matthew 25:46), or the meaning intended by the person with whom you are having a discussion, in this case about the subject of eternal punishment in Hell/Lake of Fire which continues consciously forever in the infinite meaning of the term, as the Bible plainly teaches.
In this discussion you also employ equivocation with regard to the term “die” and “death.” The Bible teaches there are two kinds of death, “spiritual death” and physical death. You argue as if there were but one kind of death, only physical. If this is your argument, you are wrong because you directly contradict Scripture, which speaks of living persons who are dead spiritually in Ephesians 2:1.
It appears that Satan employed this very same deceit when Satan used the term “die” in the sense of physical death in Genesis 3:4 when he lied to Eve by affirming she would not die that very day. And if physical death was the threatened penalty, Satan was correct, and God failed to carry out his threat. But actually, Satan employed equivocation, using the term “die” with a meaning contrary to what God clearly threatened and carried out as the penalty, namely what we call “spiritual death.”
Bringing up the “Love of God” has no bearing upon the issue when God has declared what the ultimate fate of all who are lost will be. As you remark, the justice and the righteousness of God are also at issue, not to mention the vengeance of God and the wrath of God against sin, idolatry, unbelief, and false religion.
You cannot get away with sugar-coating the doctrine of Hell!
Changing God’s doctrine taught in Scripture to suit your vision of what God should do results in a very false and deceitful religion that potentially will lead souls astray instead of leading them in repentance to seek God and get right with Him before it is forever too late.
Changing God’s doctrine this way is the ploy of Satan to get people to buy in to the false doctrine of materialistic theology, something you clearly have bought into “hook, line, and sinker.” Pastor Charles Russell fell for this same error, and with disastrous results, has led many into a very false cult ever since.
You won’t find this doctrine of theological materialism (which denies eternal punishment and continuing consciousness immediately after physical death) in the Bible if you employ the process I call Real Bible Study on Robinson Crusoe’s Deserted Island using a plain text Bible apart from all denominational or cult literature.
Quote:”In part, it may be that your error is based on the mistaken notion that we must somehow justify the ways of God to man, which is a species of the rationalistic argument, and is unscriptural.”
Hog wash. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. That said, God, unlike many churches, and one large one I can think of in particular, wields “accountable authority”. God is open in His dealing with men. Is this large church open with its dealing with men? Hardly, as seen in the many scandals seen in the news.
We are “created” beings. That is what we are. We are dust. (Genesis 2:7; Psalms 103:14; Job 34:15) When we die, we return to dust. There is no teaching in the Bible of consciousness in death. None. It is not there. Christ is the demonstration of what will happen to the wicked. Christ was made to be sin, who knew no sin, 2 Corinthians 5:21. He carried our sin in His body on the tree, 1 Peter 2:24. This no legal transaction. This was no sham. This was the real thing. He took our sin, as Isaiah 54:3 says, He took our sickness, and quoted in Matthew 8:17 ESV This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” He took our sin, but did not participate in it. He remained ever faithful. However, He died on the cross, and would have died in Gethsemane if not strengthened from above. What killed Him? SIN. Sin is more that a legal violation of a posted law. It is the violation of the law on which we are made, the very law of God which before the fall was written on our hearts and minds, in our very fabric. Sin put there by Satan, put there I will argue, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Sin that affects all nature.
Romans 8:22 ESV For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
The outward behaviors of sin we see, the “sins” of lying, adultery, stealing, coveting, are symptoms of the disease of SIN. The 10 Commandments is the CT Scanner of the soul, it points out sin. The “law” points out sin, but it has no power to save from sin. Christ came, and solved the sin problem. He took our nature, and is familiar with our trials, so that he is High Priest, He sacrificed all to solve this problem of sin, and He did it! Hebrews 4:15-16 ESV For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Grace, as I take the Biblical definition, Titus 3:5-7; Isaiah 53:11, is Christ knowledge of of how to solve the sin problem, which He will bestow on those that trust Him. John 15:13-15 ESV Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
And here is were you and I depart. What happens when we reject Christ, and do not accept His offer of healing (salvation)? You say, He will torture the sinner in hell for ever and ever without end consciously. Of 1 hour, or 1 day, 1 year, 80 years of life on this planet, those that reject Him, He will keep alive, conscious, in a burning hell, without end. To this I say, HOG WASH. It is not in the Bible. What God will do, is let the sinner have his way. And the sinner will die. Christ demonstrated that death on the cross. Christ did not die from physical crucifixion. He died the wages of SIN. And God did not lay a hand on Him.
This theme of God, giving up the unrepentant sinner is in the Bible over and over. Romans 1 I’ve quoted above. I like Deuteronomy 32, because the cause of the affliction that people experience while blamed on God, really, is God letting go, giving the people up.
The same thing BTW that he did with Sodom and Gomorrah!!! Hosea 11:8 GNB “How can I give you up, Israel? How can I abandon you? Could I ever destroy you as I did Admah, or treat you as I did Zeboiim?
Dear A. Way,
I see you unswervingly insist upon Sugar-Coating Hell.
The English translation you chose to cite apparently does the same. Here is what the verse really says:
Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
The Bible does not agree with what you have to say on this topic at all.
Note that God said that He forms the spirit of man within him.
The spirit, therefore, is a separate entity in each individual person, not (like the breath of life) a common principle shared by all.
The spirit of man is an act of creation by God compared to God’s creation of the heavens and the earth.
Your body may return to the dust, but not your spirit.
These FACTS declared by the Bible are the complete upsetting of the materialistic theory which you hold.
The Bible teaches that our spirit (or soul, when used in this sense, as it is in Matthew 10:28) continues in conscious existence after the death of the body.
Jesus Christ himself said so. The Sadducees rejected His teaching, as you do, but Jesus fully refuted their position and theology, and warned them that they knew neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Zech 12:1. Spirit – Hebrew rûach = Breath. “and forms the spirit of man within him.”. Exactly. “Within him.” In not one of the 379 instances of its use (rûach) throughout the OT does ruach denote an intelligent entity capable of existence apart from a physical body, so far as man is concerned, and it must therefore be clear that such a concept is without basis so far as the teachings of the Scriptures themselves are concerned. You might bring up again Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 AKJV 19 For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other; yes, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows the spirit of man that goes upward, and the spirit of the beast that goes downward to the earth?
All living things have the same spirit – breath. Spirit in v21 is the same as in v19, rûach. Note that man and beast both have a ruach, and that the ruach of man is “one” with that of the beast. If, then, the ruach, or “spirit,” of man becomes a disembodied conscious entity at death, the ruach of beasts must also. But the Bible nowhere so much as infers that at death a disembodied, conscious “spirit” continues to live on; and no Christian claims this for animals. In Ecclesiastes 3:21 Solomon incredulously asks who knows-who can prove-that the ruach of man ascends, while that of the beast descends. Solomon knows nothing of such a proceeding and doubts that anyone else does. If so, let him prove it. It is important to distinguish between the use of ruach to denote the literal breath (Job 9:18; Job 19:17) and its figurative use denoting the life principle (Genesis 6:17; Genesis 7:22), as here. The figurative use of ruach to mean “life” is similar to the figurative use of “blood” (Genesis 9:4). Either way, there is not separate intelligent entity the survives outside the body. Thus, the your concept of hell fails. You can sugar coat that which does not exist. But death will happen. And the 2nd death is not followed by resurrection.
Dear A. Way,
Those are interesting comments you cite, but they are (1) incorrect, (2) beside the point, and (3) do not at all address the truth expressed in the text I cited, namely, Zechariah 12:1.
So, you are merely citing those who have fallen into the same error and heresy as you have, the materialist heresy, the same viewpoint on this theme that the Sadducees had.
Zechariah 12:1 specifically claims that the “spirit” in each individual man is there by a direct, creative act of God, who creates an individual spirit unique to each person.
You are not dealing honestly with the Scriptures when you cite such claims as are made in your preceding post. Apparently both you and your source have utterly failed to study God’s written Word found in the Bible on Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island, apart from all cult literature and denominational literature, to let the Bible speak for itself. You have not employed even the Bible study tools allowed on Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island to make a full study of all the evidence in even the Old Testament.
I have made a full induction of all the evidence and it has been posted in public on discussion boards where I have encountered the nonsense of materialist theology before. I have placed my full study in The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge and have retained that study in full in Nelson’s Cross Reference Guide to the Bible.
It is about time that you learn to go by the Bible alone and in its entirety! That is the only way I know of to break out from the terrible error you are presently locked into, as I said before, “hook, line, and sinker,” in a vain effort to Sugar-coat Hell, and remake God and His attributes into a more palatable form.
Quote:”It is about time that you learn to go by the Bible alone and in its entirety! That is the only way I know of to break out from the terrible error you are presently locked into, as I said before, “hook, line, and sinker,” in a vain effort to Sugar-coat Hell, and remake God and His attributes into a more palatable form.”
You continue to claim that you are not influenced by outside sources, and that is clearly not true. I do read the Bible. And no where, do I read that God will torture sinners for ever and ever. This is a lie! My reading of Zechariah 12 is consistent with the fact that we are created beings and are only such as a whole. There is no evidence in the Bible for an entity outside of the body that can exist and be tortured in hell forever. Zechariah 12:1 AKJV The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, said the LORD, which stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him. The “spirit”, the breath, is within man. Not outside, and something that can exist separated from the body. It is you that has added to this verse. Let the reader be convinced for themselves. If people read the Bible without their preconceived ideas such as you have come to read the Bible, then they would find that there will be the end of sin and sinners. And end. Not a continue presence, a continual torturing.
I find it interesting that you have not addressed the verses I quoted previously which completely destroys your argument for us to be afraid of God because of what he will do to us if we do not love Him, such as Romans 2:4, where is shows that it is the KINDNESS of God that draws us to repentance. Wake up Jerry. It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.
Dear A. Way,
I appreciate your good nature and diligence!
But I ask you to think again, for you have utterly missed the point of Zechariah 12:1,
TWO creative acts are declared in Zechariah 12:1. The first is the creation of the heavens and the earth. The second is the creation of the spirit of man within him.
The separate spirit of each individual person is by the direct creative act of God formed within him.
That is more than a step above what your interpretation claims, for you have stated that the “spirit of man” is only the breath of man within him. Your view, then, equates the creation of the universe with the placement of breath in man, as if the latter were a creative act on the part of God on as grand a scale as the former. Such a comparison to anyone not already committed to a false theory of the nature of man is ludicrous, and unworthy of the God of creation who is magnified in this text by a clear comparison well beyond what you so far admit.
You comment:
I guess you must not really be reading your Bible then. Jesus explicitly declares that eternal life will last just as long as eternal punishment will, and in precisely the same sense (Matthew 25:46).
Remember that “everlasting” and “eternal” in this verse are English translations of the same Greek word. Remember that “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal” are mentioned in clauses of the same sentence, such that the duration of the one must be identical to the duration of the other, with no equivocation about the meaning of the terms: if you find a way to shorten the duration of the one, you necessitate the same shortening of the other, as well as the eternal existence of God Himself which in another text uses precisely the same Greek word as is used here. You cannot make one reference in Matthew 25:46 mean effect and the other reference to eternal mean duration to suit your materialist theory, for this is equivocation.
The grammar of the sentence in Matthew 25:46 requires this understanding.
Just shortly before that in Matthew 25:41 Jesus made another declaration about Hell or the Lake of Fire when He said:
It looks like the devil and his angels are in for a mighty long period of conscious torment in the everlasting fire prepared for them. No hint at all in the text or elsewhere in the Bible that this punishment is of limited duration or is temporary; and note, Jesus is saying that He will say to those “on his left hand,” “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,” and those He is speaking of are some of the people described in the preceding verses of this text. Jesus states that they will share the same fate and for the same duration and in the same place as the devil and his angels.
But, upon your reading your Bible, you state that:
I guess that in your copy of the Bible, someone accidentally tore that page out, otherwise I’m sure you would have read that God will torture sinners for ever and ever. Now I have given you the precise text that must be missing from your copy, and you can see that the claim cannot be a lie, because Jesus himself made the claim!
Let us examine more closely your assertion:
Jesus said there is such an entity when He said,
Men can kill the body. Men cannot kill the soul. Therefore, we must logically conclude, that the soul is an entity which cannot be killed, at least by men (nor is it ever stated that God kills souls or spirits). We must logically conclude that the soul must therefore survive the body upon the death of the body. This speaks, therefore, of an entity which remains conscious and is subject to suffering torment in hell, the very thing Jesus plainly warns about in this text.
Here is another passage which bears upon the issue:
And here is another:
The spirit of man is an entity in man that knows what is in that man, and that spirit is in that man. Neither of these texts will support the notion that “spirit” always means breath, and has never a meaning of a conscious entity in man and out of man, as materialists would claim.
Here is another pertinent text:
Who knew such a man? Paul did. Who was the man? Paul himself.
What experience in this text does Paul relate? The experience of being transported to the third heaven where he heard unspeakable words.
Notice what Paul says he was not sure about: whether he went to the third heaven “in the body” or “out of the body.” Logically, it must be asserted that Paul believed that either option was possible. Therefore, Paul asserts that he entered the third heaven possibly out of his body but in full possession of his consciousness, and returned to tell that fact.
This rather neatly proves that the Bible asserts conscious present existence of the spirit of man is possible outside the body.
Here is another relevant text:
There are in heaven right now “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Certainly this is not a reference to the “breaths” of just men made perfect. The just men are conscious (or they would not now be made perfect) and they exist as “spirits,” so that “spirits” must be separate entities with conscious existence outside the physical bodies they once inhabited, while they await the resurrection while now in the presence of God the Judge of all.
Indeed, Hell should not be Sugar-Coated, as you persist in doing, contrary to the Word of God in the Bible.
What does destroy mean to you? Destroy mean to “defeat soundly”, “put to death”, “damage irreparably”, “do away with, cause destruction”. That is the definition of destroy. But to you, it does not mean that at all. Why?
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Destroy – total destruction. Not torturing in hell for eternity. Yes, the punishment will last forever, it is everlasting, no more to return to life.
Yes, men can not destroy the “soul”, the “spirit” of man. Have you ever read “Foxes Book of Martyrs”? The “church” could not destroy the character of the true worshiper of God.
Have you ever witnessed a person undergoing anesthesia for surgery? What do those people remember from the surgery? If the spirit is separate from the body, then certainly, it can not be affected by the drugs of anesthesia. Yet, with properly conducted anesthetics, the victim, ah, patient reports nothing. No memory. How is it that anesthetic drugs puts the “spirit” to sleep, but when the body dies, the spirit does not sleep? Very strange, don’t you think? Are drugs more powerful than death? That is one scientific fact that you idea of immortality of the soul is not tenable.
2 Corinthians 12:2 – Paul was having a dream, a vision. Paul is speaking of himself is evident from (1) the fact that this reference to visions is in the midst of an account of events connected with his own life and ministry; (2) the fact that in 2 Corintians 12:7 he designates these visions and revelations as made directly to himself; and (3) the fact that he uses the third person in order to avoid the appearance of boasting. John did the same thing, for example, John 13:23-24.
“Whether in the body” In vision there is complete absence of sensibility to earthly surroundings. The perception of things seen and heard in vision, and at times participation in the scenes presented, are fully as real to the consciousness as the normal sensory experiences of life. God was communicating with Paul. Sorry, 2 Corinthians fails to prove your point.
Hebrews 12:23. The idea that the word pneuma denotes some supposedly conscious entity of man capable of existence apart from the body is not inherent in the word itself nor can such a meaning be derived objectively from its usage in the NT. Such a concept is based exclusively on the preconceived opinions of those who believe that a conscious entity survives the body at death and who read this preconceived opinion into such words as “spirit” and “soul.” Desert island – indeed…
“Just men made perfect.” These are mature Christians. The words “ye are come” in Hebrews 12:22 are addressed to living Christians, as the context makes evident. The writer is not addressing the righteous dead of ages past, as if they were actually assembled before “the Judge of all” men on “mount Sion” in “the heavenly Jerusalem” (Hebrews 12:22-23). All will agree that it is only in a figurative sense that living Christians can assemble before the throne of God as pictured in Hebrews 12:22-24. It is in this same sense that in Hebrews 4:16 he invites them to “come boldly unto the throne of grace.” In this same figurative sense living Christians find “the spirits” of all other “just men made perfect” assembled there in spirit, not in an imaginary disembodied state. To make “the spirits of just men made perfect” refer to supposedly disembodied “spirits” would be to set the writer of Hebrews at variance with the clear statements of the Holy Scriptures concerning the state of man in death (Ecclesiastes 3:21; Ecclesiastes 12:7; John 11:11; Genesis 2:7).
Dear A. Way,
It looks like those who wish to Sugar-Coat Hell have a way to weasel their way around every statement in the Bible that flatly contradicts their view.
Whether Paul was having a “vision” in the sense you attribute to the text is immaterial to the argument. The point is, Paul explicitly stated he did not know whether he was in the body or not. That still means that Paul believed that it was possible to enter the third heaven consciously apart from his body with his spirit.
Furthermore, Paul speaks in the text in 2 Corinthians 12:1 not only of visions, but of revelations of the Lord. The text indicates Paul was actually taken to Paradise and while there he heard things that he could not lawfully share with others. So in the third heaven there was intelligent life involving humanly understandable communication going on. I don’t think Paul had eaten too many onions for supper and was having a wild dream.
Your understanding of the state of persons under medical anesthesia is inconclusive, because there is testimony to the contrary widely available–I have perhaps a foot or so of shelf space devoted to “Dying testimonies of saints and sinners,” books published over a period of more than 100 years, some of which testimonies venture into this area.
Your understanding of the word “destroy” from the Greek text as it is used in Scripture is not correct. Previously in our discussions I supplied numerous texts that use this word, citing them in full. In no text does the word “destroy” ever mean annihilate. By an inductive study of all the instances of the word, it is possible to derive the meaning of the term as to render something unsuitable for its original purpose. It is rendered “lost” in the KJV in Luke 19:10,
And just who are the lost? Those persons who are now alive but are still “dead in their trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1).
Consider this interesting occurrence of the word in 1 Corinthians 15:16-18,
Clearly, those who have died outside of true faith in Christ are perished. Those who have died in Christ are not perished.
The Bible does not suggest that those who have died unsaved no longer exist. Jesus named the place where He will send them in Matthew 25:41,
Just where is that “everlasting fire” located?
Answer: in the Lake of Fire.
How long do they get to enjoy free global warming in its intensified form?
This is solidly confirmed by what Jesus said Himself, in a sentence whose grammar allows for no weaseling or obfuscation, despite the efforts of deceived annihilationist materialists who would detract from what He said by the use of equivocation, at Matthew 25:46,
How long does everlasting life last? How long does God Himself last?
That is exactly how long that everlasting punishment will last.
Now as for your lucid comment,
If you have never been there, how would you know? You apparently have no basis in experience to actually tell the difference. I have.
If you were open to suggestion, you easily could gain this essential experience for yourself, which is my prayer for you.
You will recall I carefully explained how to visit Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island. But as I recall, you scoffed and bristled at the suggestion. Perhaps you should reconsider.
I have carefully and in meticulous detail explained where and how I have learned what I know so far from the Bible. I don’t recall you ever sharing that kind of information about yourself here. But maybe my forgetter is better than my rememberer on that subject, so forgive me if I am mistaken.
Quote:”You will recall I carefully explained how to visit Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island. But as I recall, you scoffed and bristled at the suggestion. Perhaps you should reconsider.” I scoffed at the idea that you ever came up with your doctrines on a desert island. I doubted and still doubt that your believes are born in isolation of a desert island. It is interesting that you need “rules” to be shipwrecked on a desert island. What if I were shipwrecked with only the TEV (which you called a paraphrase 🙂 ) and not one of Jerry approved versions such as the ESV? Would my shipwrecking while still isolated be invalid? Indeed, your doctrines appear to contain may preconceived ideas that you use to rationalize your reading, adding interpretation to texts that make no such statements. But if you insist enough times, you will not only believe it yourself, it but those that read your blog will also. Even though, it never happened.
Dear A. Way,
If your TEV is a plain-text Bible, it is allowed on Robinson Crusoe’s Desert Island!
As you are a very perceptive reader, you might be able to venture a guess as to where I came up with my doctrines.
I claim that initially as a new Christian I read a plain-text pocket NT back in 1953 from August until November, and on Saturday, November 7, 1953, understood from that reading how to believe in and receive Christ and did so. I was outside that morning, not in a church, not even in sight of a church, delivering papers on Lumpkin Street in Detroit.
I believe the Bible has been written for our learning (Romans 15:4), and that it is understandable in all essential matters pertaining to salvation to the ordinary reader.
I marked a pocket NT that my father gave me, marking in the margins by means of short abbreviations, the topics that I found. Such topics as repentance, prayer, salvation, belief, tradition, the sufficiency of Scripture, assurance of salvation, and no doubt other topics as I came across them.
I then re-read individual topics in sequence, reading all the verses I had found and marked about prayer, for example.
This, I am sure, formed the strictly Biblical basis for my initial understanding of the topics in Scripture.
I eventually began buying Christian books, largely Bible study reference tools, which I purchased from the money I earned as a teen from my paper route and from cutting the neighbors’ grass and by shoveling snow (charging ten cents per inch of snowfall). Early on I bought Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. I bought plain text pocket Bibles produced by Collins Clear-type Press in England. I bought a book by Fred H. Wright, Devotional Studies of Old Testament Types on August 3, 1956 at the Romeo Simpson Park Camp Meeting grounds. I bought Milton S. Terry’s work, Biblical Hermeneutics from the Grand Bible and Book Store. I bought a book by William Kirk Hobart, The Medical Language of St. Luke at the Central Bible Depot in the Farwell Building in downtown Detroit, a beautiful structure I recently saw a picture of on the Internet showing its current state of disrepair. At the Central Bible Depot I bought my favorite Bible, a Cambridge Cameo Bible with a fine leather cover and leather lined, which I still use constantly: it is a plain-text KJV Bible.
I don’t believe that any of my Bible study tools and reference works back then served to “poison the well” of my understanding of the Bible.
As I have further studied the Bible most carefully, making use of the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge and its remarkable collection of cross references to nearly every verse in the Bible, I have learned that so far as I can determine from my study of the Bible, probably every denomination is mistaken in their understanding and teaching on some point. But truly evangelical Bible-believing churches share a common understanding of the basics of salvation and spiritual growth that I surely would not quibble with.
Now just where do you see in all this any departure from my suggestion repeated often here that one should first make a direct study of Scripture by reading it for himself or herself? That is what I clearly did.
After one has learned a good bit of what the Bible teaches on his or her own, it helps to make use of generic Bible study tools, tools that are non-denominational.
Beyond that, one can feel free to investigate Bible doctrines in greater depth by purchasing and studying works on systematic theology, but always keeping in mind that we must “prove all things” and “hold fast to what is true” by checking it carefully against Scripture.
When I began teaching Sunday school, that provided the avenue for me to learn still more.
Many years later, when teaching Sunday school at the Military Avenue United Presbyterian Church in Detroit, where my Sunday school class grew from eight members to forty regular attenders, two of the students asked me for help because they were being visited fairly regularly by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I ultimately had the Jehovah’s Witnesses come every Monday night for four years to my apartment. We had many interesting and thorough discussions. I learned more about Bible doctrine doing that than any other single experience I can think of. But I learned that the Jehovah’s Witnesses were utterly wrong on almost all points of doctrine and theology, because their teaching does not match what the Bible teaches and emphasizes.
Now I have related to you yet another time where I have gotten my understanding of the Bible from, when, and how.
How about you–where have you gotten your understanding from? Clearly, so far, your understanding is often different than my understanding of the teaching of God’s Word in the Bible.
Romans 10:17 AKJV So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I listen – a lot. I read the Bible. Many versions, 37 and then some. I have several dictionaries, such as the Brown-Driver-Briggs (BDB). Strong’s. Thayer. King James Dictionary and Concordance. And the New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance. Lots of cross references in these. I have the TSK. And, I listen, a lot. I pull lectures and sermons off the internet from diverse places, and attend lectures.
I attended a lecture today by a Jewish physicist, PhD in High Energy Physics, Standford University. The lecture was on the chance of life forming by chance. Just science, no personal “beliefs” were presented and he would not answer questions on personal beliefs. He would only answer questions for which there was scientific evidence. His presentation was fascinating.
I also attended a lecture today on Genesis 1:1-2:3, by an international scholar. He dissected the verses, simply, yet powerfully, looking at the intent and meaning of creation and the 7th day. The speaker wrote a book titled, “The Lost Meaning of the 7th Day”. Even you might have been interested in his presentation. Was there a command to keep the Sabbath in Genesis, he asked? Answer: NOPE. But he then parsed out the example of God resting and the intent. You accuse Adventist of being legalistic. This speaker mentioned them in that their emphasis on law was not necessarily right. Recall that the “new covenant” is the writing of the law on the heart and mind. Doing what is right, because it is right. The emphasis of the Sabbath is the creator and creation. He brought in parts of a review by an evangelical Ben Witherington. I’ve read the review and I’ve read the book. And now I hear him in person. And this is part of the reason I hear you arguments against the Sabbath from Genesis to be so shallow. You recall your arguments such as, there is no commandment in Genesis, and the word “Sabbath” is never mentioned, etc. You then said, it was instituted at Sinai, and back tracked to Exodus 16. You I’m sure remember all this exchange. Well, this guy takes this discussion to a whole different level. He did his PhD at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. Grew up in Norway, speaks Norwegian, German, French, Greek, Hebrew, oh, and English. You might be interesting to know that the word for “commandment” in Norwegian is “bud”. And the word for gift or offer is “tilbud”. The Sabbath was made for man. A gift. But you can not divorce if from creation. There is also universality there. And the acting subject in Genesis 2:1-3 account is God. It is God’s day. I think there will be an audio recording of this talk and I will send it to you when it is posted on the Internet, usually by the end of the week. BTW – in German, angebot is offer/gift, bot is commandment. The Sabbath being a gift or offered to us. But I digress.
The point is I listen a lot. I have a MP3 player and listen every time I hike in the local hills, often 1-2 hours at a time 4-5 times per week. And I read, and compare scripture with scripture. After the science talk today, I discussed the topic with several in attendance for several hours.
One fact you may not have gotten yet in our little discussions is my view of sin. Sin is transgression of the law. But what law? I have stipulated that the 10C as they are laid out in exodus 20 were not specifically given in Genesis. Galatians 3:19 tells us that the law as added because of transgression. Sin is transgression (of the law), the law was added because of transgression. One might go in circles. I believe the Genesis record is extremely important to understanding the whole of scripture. It is foundational to the New Testament. And without understanding the Old Testament, the New can not be fully understood. Genesis lays out that the creation was good, even very good. Death entered the world by sin. (Romans 5:12). The death we see now in nature was not what was created. We see good and evil in nature. Nature has been corrupted, and that occurred at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, when Adam and Eve “sinned”. All nature groans together under sin, Romans 8:22. In fact, Romans 5-7 I think can only be really understood from physical paradigm, and corruption of creation. Genesis 3:15, God imposed enmity between the serpent (Satan) and the woman, between his “seed” and her “seed”. Seed in Hebrew, is Zera. In the Septuagint it is “sperma”. Genetic material. Romans 5:12 again, sin entered the world by one man and death by sin, thus death passed to all men. What does a man pass from one generation to another, besides knowledge? 23 chromosomes in a protein cap. That’s it! Death passes to all men, then it has to be in the genome. Period.
Salvation then, is not a legal transaction that needs to be performed, of some writing in a book that needs to be whitewashed. We need to be transformed, changed, born again (you see the genetic paradigm there???). Christ bore our sins in his body on the tree, 1 Peter 2:24. I read this literally. He was tempted in all ways, yet without sin, Hebrews 4:15. Christ took our nature, and in the flesh, destroyed the works of the devil, 1 John 3:8.
Thus, sin is a thing in the very fabric in which we are made. Not by God, his work is perfect, but by Satan. Sin is something we need to be rescued from, not condemned because of. We will all die. Only Christ can save (heal) us.
I also believe that it is only by trusting God that we can be healed (saved). We are saved by his Grace, and this through faith. I’ve given you my definition of grace several times, yet you have not acknowledged it and perhaps more probably, you do not understand it. Titus 3:5-7, and Isaiah 53:11. Grace = knowledge. Christ took our human nature, and in that nature never participated in its sin, and suffered and died, even death on a cross. Isaiah 53:3-4, says he carried our sickness. Yes, he carried our very sick nature. And we esteemed him stricken, afflicted by God. Christ died the death of a sinner. And how was God involved? God did not lay a hand on Christ. Death, 1st and 2nd is the natural consequences of sin. Christ’ death, made us His friend, Romans 5:10. Romans 5:10 GNB We were God’s enemies, but he made us his friends through the death of his Son. Now that we are God’s friends, how much more will we be saved by Christ’s life!
So you see, understanding Genesis and creation is fundamental to the question of Hell. Genesis tells us that nature has been corrupted by Satan. It has lead to death. 1st death all suffer. Only one person has had a 2nd death experience, and that was Christ. And that showed us that it is not God that does the punishing for sin! Sin pays its wage, death, Romans 6:23, James 1:13-15. Will God “punish” sinner in hell for eternity? Well, God does not actively punish anyone. Sin pays the punishment. And we only need to look to Christ to see the real character of God. If we have seen Christ, we have seen the Father. John 14:9 AKJV Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? Did Christ torture anyone? No. Did Christ kill anyone? No. Do we need to be afraid of God, ever? NO. Does God do the condemning of sinners? NO. See the story of the woman taken in adultery. Will sinners die? YES. But it is because they have rejected God love. John 3:16-17 AKJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 8:32 AKJV And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Hell being depicted as a play of eternal conscious torment destroys freedom, and makes you a slave. It is not true. God will not torture any one. God loves us all, and always will. But in the end, He will let the sinner go and they will die. In fact, as I understand the science of the genome and sin, God presence is a consuming fire to sin. The righteous will live in the eternally burning fire. Isaiah 33:14-15 AKJV The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;
What Victor Hugo wrote in the introduction of is brilliant novel Les Misérables epitomizes what it means to have Christ’s heart for the lost:
“A society that tolerates misery, a religion that tolerates Hell, a humanity that tolerates war, is to me an inferior one. With all of the strength of my being I want to destroy this human deprivation. I damn the slavery, I chase away the misery, I heal the sickness, I brighten the darkness, I hate the hatred. ”
See: http://therebelgod.com/hell.html
See: http://www.therebelgod.com/2011/09/more-i-follow-jesus-less-i-like-his.html
Have a nice day!
Dear A. Way,
Thank you for your two interesting posts. I’ve enjoyed reading them. I see you make use of a number of different English translations. I lost count, long ago, of how many different English translations of the Bible, or parts of the Bible, I have. The bookcase behind me has four shelves, each about four feet long, filled with Bible translations. I have more downstairs in the living room where I often sit to read. You are right in emphasizing Romans 10:17,
As to your reflections in your first post, you continue to deny that Jesus Christ has anything to do with the suffering of the lost forever in the Lake of Fire. You therefore are re-writing Scripture to suit your prejudices, not taking it literally for what it explicitly says!
I guess you already know this must violate one or more of the 23 Rules of Interpretation that I have posted in the October 2010 archives here. To you, these rules of mine are arbitrary. But in reality, as you must know, they are fundamental rules that govern the understanding of all communication by language, particularly as God has communicated His truth to us by means of language in his verbally inspired Word of God, the Bible.
You have ignored or otherwise somehow missed what Jesus said in Matthew 25:41,
And again in Matthew 25:46,
The options are plainly revealed in Scripture at John 3:16,
Those who believe on Him, the Son of man, may not perish, but may have eternal life. “May” is required in correct translation of the Greek text which here involves the subjunctive mood, which is the mood of contingency. The contingency is expressed by the present tense verb “believe,” which speaks of continuing to believe.
The “may not perish” involves the subjunctive mood, but for “not” provides a weaker “not” “mee” instead of the absolute “ou mee” in Greek, thus not a guarantee of unconditional security, but security based upon continuing belief.
But the alternative is clearly indicated when we ask, “What happens to anyone who does not meet the contingency specified?” The clear answer is that such a person will perish.
And there is that word apollumi again, a form of which in the Greek text is in John 3:16 translated “perish.” It does NOT mean to annihilate, as I’ve explained at length to you before when I cited Luke 19:10 where it is rendered “lost.”
You already know what the destiny of those who finally perish is stated by our Lord Jesus Christ to be, but I’ll remind you in case it slipped your memory, for I must not engage in Sugar-Coating the Bible Doctrine of Hell:
By the way, your repeated artful dodge of the meaning of this text, suggesting that “soul” here means “character,” is incorrect. God hardly destroys anyone’s character, whether in this life on earth, or the next life hereafter. Once again we have apollumi, here translated destroy, where it hardly means annihilate.
What you have proven by your citation of the great author Victor Hugo who disdained the Christian and Biblical teaching about Hell is that many of our great authors were not as familiar with the Bible as we might wish they would have been. Seems to me like Victor Hugo was Roman Catholic, but in this article of faith he did not agree with the teaching of his church. An even greater author from the standpoint of literary prominence, Dante, apparently did believe in the doctrine of Hell, but went beyond the teaching of Scripture and included Purgatory which, of course, is not to be found in the Bible at all, though the Pope thinks it is there. Another great author, Milton, was far more correct and true to the Bible than either of the other authors just named.
Quote:”As to your reflections in your first post, you continue to deny that Jesus Christ has anything to do with the suffering of the lost forever in the Lake of Fire. You therefore are re-writing Scripture to suit your prejudices, not taking it literally for what it explicitly says!”
I repeat, John 14:9 AKJV Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?
Everything we need to know about God we can see in Jesus.
The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. But your interpretation is that the wages of sin, is torture by God who miraculously keeps you alive forever and ever.
Luk 6:36 Be you therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
But you say, He is merciful to a point, then he flip flops, and becomes a torturer.
To you, God is someone to be afraid of. I feel sorry that you.
You can’t sugar coat something that does not exist.
Dear A. Way,
You cannot arrive at the truth of the Bible when you arbitrarily leave out the parts that do not suit you!
But in any case, I was pleased to learn that you get plenty of exercise each week. I try to do likewise by walking several times a day the nice paths that my wife has kept cut for me in the back section of our fifteen acres here.
I completed my basic work of extending the cross references for the book of Daniel this evening. I may start Hosea tomorrow, Lord willing and enabling.
I’ve enjoyed the discussion. Bro. Jerry’s work in studying scripture is so badly needed in our world today. I enjoyed the discussion…and I need to walk as well this morning!
Quote:”You cannot arrive at the truth of the Bible when you arbitrarily leave out the parts that do not suit you!”
Nor should one interpret a text to say something that it does not say.
Romans 2:4 AKJV Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
Does His kindness include torturing people consciously for eternity? That is not what the Bible teaches. Sin will be cleaned, removed, gone, forever. God is Love. Full stop.
Dear A. Way,
I fully agree with Romans 2:4,
But, as always, the context must be taken into account when we seek to understand a verse that is our focus:
First, the verse before Romans 2:4,
Second, the verse after Romans 2:4,
Considering the context, it appears to me that the Apostle Paul, under Divine Inspiration, expressed a balanced, not one-sided view that is in harmony with the known (because elsewhere in Scripture revealed) character and attributes of God.
Since you have the TSK at hand, I’ll leave it to you to check further on other Scriptures that tie into these, particularly the references given for Romans 2:3 that thou shalt, including the reference to Matthew 23:33,
In keeping with our theme, we surely must not Sugar-coat Hell!
But those who choose not to repent, who choose not to believe in Christ, will suffer the consequences named in John 3:16-18 and John 3:36,
Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (ESV)
Define the Wrath of God.
Romans 1:18-19 AKJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.
Keep reading Romans 1, and the wrath of God is described.
Rom 1:24 Why God also gave them up …
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up …
Romans 1:28 AKJV And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind…
Does it say, God will torture then, burn them? No. God gives them up.
You are in Hosea, same model is there. Hosea 4:17 ESV Ephraim is joined to idols; leave him alone. Hosea 11:8 ESV How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender.
And who are Admah and Zeboiim??? The other two described here: Jude 1:7 ESV just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Deuteronomy 32:30 Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The LORD, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up.
The same thing is repeated over and over. You are right! Don’t sugar coat what will happen to the wicked. A warning spoken of in the book of Revelation:
Revelation 14:9-12 A third angel followed the first two, saying in a loud voice, “Those who worship the beast and its image and receive the mark on their forehead or on their hand 10 will themselves drink God’s wine, the wine of his fury, which he has poured at full strength into the cup of his anger! All who do this will be tormented in fire and sulfur before the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of the fire that torments them goes up forever and ever. There is no relief day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, for anyone who has the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for endurance on the part of God’s people, those who obey God’s commandments and are faithful to Jesus.
The scriptures reveal that they are written in the spirit, without understanding to the natural man. Many claim to be of the spirit and able to see, while it becomes clear from the writings they produce and the words they speak that the scriptures are very much concealed to them. With the world being widely divided by doctrine and so many claim love to be the binder of religion, yet being still without understanding to what the love of God is, denying the power of God. Why is it so difficult to see that Christ gave His life for the world and this a sign for all to follow, to live by, completely hidden to man, unable to relate this to his neighbor. Simply because man in his own wisdom is unable to understand the written Word, this is the whole Truth, plainly written in the scriptures, but man, empowered in his pride declares, argues and willing to kill for, whether in spirit or flesh, will not be humbled to the Truth, absolutely refusing to submit to Christ, but I know the Word does declare; Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess the Lord, the Truth. Little does any man believe that in every word he speaks against Christ, he condemns himself in judgment, making himself against Christ / anti-Christ. Pride is so powerful, all will die by it, as the serpent is it’s father, only in Christ, the Truth, can anyone overcome it. The Word declares; the last enemy to be put under His feet is death, death is not eternal, although many teach that it is, they are without understanding and the Truth is blasphemed, denying the power of God. Before we can seek True doctrine we must submit to the Word, as revealed in the scriptures when Christ began to deliver the gospel He proclaimed; repent and believe. Through the Truth working in us, grace, this principality is dethroned and we bare our cross, being made obedient through sufferings, giving up all that we have, keeping the commandment. Being renewed in mind, casting down vain imaginations, we bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit of God, the Truth, laying a sure foundation for our spiritual house to be built on, as Christ, the Truth works in us, building line upon line, without our help, without interference from our own wisdom, as we in patience seek this Truth/Christ in His Word receiving precept upon precept. But yet we declare, this is what I have done for so many years.
It is not possible for the multitude to see God’s plan revealed through His Spirit written within the scriptures. Once a person is led away from the first love, their chance of coming to the Truth in this life is greatly reduced. As they begin to absorb the doctrines taught of men they loose the child like attention initially given to hearing the Lord and put their faith in those of the world that have been presented to them as mature in knowledge and wisdom. This being what the Lord warned of, those that would lead you astray, seeking worshipers for their self. This abandonment of Truth goes unnoticed by the newborn follower as their desire to learn of the Lord is sought with great urgency, and they being distracted with great fanfare through fellowship and worship in the flesh. They are generally not taught that the Lord communicates through the still small voice from within, and when finally coming to this understanding they are already dependent on fellowship through man’s religion, being without desire and unable to see a reason to repent and return to do the first works, Christ in you, those who received not the love of the Truth. This being revealed in Hebrews; by which time you should be teachers you have need to be taught yourself the foundation of the gospel of God. As Paul wrote; love never fails. If we believe God is love, as He claims, then we know He can not fail in all that He has purposed, as He has purposed and will also make it come to past. Before we can teach doctrine, we must have a sure foundation, that is Christ, Love and Truth.
And finally, be not deceived by the translations of men, regardless of how much wisdom we accredit to men, we know the best that men can offer is foolishness to God, as the commandment is to prove all things, be diligent in seeking the Lord, the Truth, the first works, He is the Beginning, where we must start, the sure foundation. Whereby would we know these things, through Romans 1:20 we know the physical things represent the spiritual, and by 1Corinthians 2:13 the Truth is found through comparing the spiritual with spiritual, being taught of the Holy Spirit. With this in mind, look at the curse that is upon the earth/man/dirt, it is because Adam listened to Eve, Eve having come out from Adam, that from within defiles the man, is what the Lord said. Knowing this is spiritual, not to blame the woman, but to look at the spiritual typology we know from the proverbs that female gender is depicted as true wisdom having come out from God and we are told to hear and listen to this woman, to get wisdom, above all things get wisdom, the opposite in reason of the curse, not to listen to the woman. Then is revealed the other wisdom, the harlot, the seducer of man, spiritual fornication, as man follows his own wisdom we now understand what is meant by being led of the spirit, the wisdom of God, our first love.
Rev 2:4 But I have this against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love. 5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and WILL MOVE THY CANDLESTICK out of its place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:1 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, HE THAT WALKETH IN THE MIDST OF THE SEVEN GOLDEN CANDLESTICKS:
Rev 1:19 Write therefore the things which thou sawest, and the things which are, and the things which shall come to pass hereafter; 20 the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the SEVEN CANDLESTICKS ARE SEVEN CHURCHES.
Rev 1:4 John to THE SEVEN CHURCHES THAT ARE IN ASIA: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;
2Ti 1:13 Hold the pattern of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee guard through the Holy Spirit which dwelleth in us. 15 This thou knowest, that ALL THAT ARE IN ASIA TURNED AWAY FROM ME; of whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and THEY THAT HEAR the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.
Dear Bob,
Thank you for taking time to post a comment here.
You are right that God’s truth must be understood spiritually, not merely academically or intellectually.
Paul wrote that the natural man does not receive the things of God, neither can the natural man understand the things of God.
Jesus told us plainly that broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many take that way. He also said narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it.
I believe we must go by the Bible alone and in its entirety, for only the Bible contains the written word of God.
The final verse you quote, from Revelation 1:3, commends the reading of God’s word. At the time when John penned those words, he no doubt had in mind primarily the reading aloud of Scripture to others. But the blessing no doubt applies equally to those who today are able to read God’s Word for themselves. It is supremely important to “hear,” that is understand, what we are reading, both literally and spiritually speaking.
That is why I encourage people to read and re-read the Bible in smaller portions. It may well be more difficult for people who read through the Bible in one year to really “hear” much of what they are reading. I don’t mean to seem to discourage reading the Bible through in a year, but I hope those who do so will take extra time to focus more deeply on the study of a portion of God’s word more thoroughly.
I note that you focus on the love of God. Surely that is an important theme.
But the Bible focuses on many attributes of God, and we must account for and understand each of them to arrive at a correct understanding of Who God says He is.
Hearing the Word.
I thank you also for your response. In speaking to the aspects of receiving the Word I once also sought a literal understanding as some denominations do teach, that those things that seem clear in the letter are to be taken literally, and those unclear should be thought of as spiritual. After some time as my understanding began to mature through the Word I came to realize that the Word was right and my thinking was skewed. In study I desired to know everything I read and was not satisfied with not receiving instant knowledge, not being patient to wait on the Lord, I would contemplate the Word and force my self to accept my own understanding or suggestions from others. Now I seem more determined to wait upon the Lord, sometimes feeling as though Word is closed to me and other times I will get a flood of understanding that will unlock several things I have been studying. I suppose what I am getting at is to assure you that all things are given through the spirit, and with a little study we are able to realize this. I hope that these scriptures impress you as they have me.
Joh 6:27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for THE FOOD WHICH ABIDETH UNTO ETERNAL LIFE, which THE SON OF MAN shall give unto you: for him THE FATHER, EVEN GOD, HATH SEALED.
Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the back, CLOSE SEALED WITH SEVEN SEALS. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a great voice, WHO IS WORTHY TO OPEN THE BOOK, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no one in the heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, was able to open the book, or to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because NO ONE WAS FOUND WORTHY TO OPEN THE BOOK, or to look thereon: 5 and one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not; behold, the Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath overcome to open the book and the seven seals thereof.
Joh 7:38 He that BELIEVETH ON ME, AS THE SCRIPTURE HATH SAID, from within him shall flow rivers of living water. 39 BUT THIS SPAKE HE OF THE SPIRIT, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified.
2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; NOT OF THE LETTER, but of the spirit: FOR THE LETTER KILLETH, but the spirit giveth life.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU ARE SPIRIT, AND ARE LIFE. 64 but there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him. 65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
I see through the scriptures I have listed here that the Word of God is Spirit, not some of the Word is Spirit, but all of it. To avoid all confusion, the Lord has placed in His Word a clear revelation; the letter kills, knowing this means there is no life received through the literal understanding, the flesh profits nothing, this speaking of our own understanding, the understanding must come through the Spirit of Christ, which is of the Father, which came out from the Father. There are very many doctrines that have been given through the wisdom of man, being multiplied like gossip every since the New Covenant began to be received, but the only Truth comes through Christ, the Spirit of the Word, as Peter said; Lord, to whom shall we go?
Joh 6:67 Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, Would ye also go away? 68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
If we keep the commandment to discern the spirits we can receive a very revealing Truth about the division amongst mankind, just how important it is to seek Christ for understanding.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, BUT PROVE THE SPIRITS, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: EVERY SPIRIT THAT CONFESSETH that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already. 4 Ye are of God, my little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they as of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Already we know that word is spirit, confess means to speak, hereby we know the words a man speaks reveals the spirit that is within him, if this is difficult to receive look at verse 4 and it will become clear what John wrote, he is saying to know if a man is of Christ, if Christ is coming in a man’s flesh, it will be revealed by what the man speaks, confesses. Again, in verse 4 it is made clear, He that is in you is greater then he that is in the world, being taught through man’s wisdom keeps us from receiving Christ, the Truth. Why do we want to receive Christ, the Truth, because; Christ in you/me is our hope for glory, as we learn to live by the True Words of God we become as He is, His image, let us make man in our image. Simply said, those that are anti-Christ are those that deny the Truth, Christ.
As for love, love is the foundation to build on, yes there are many aspects of God revealed in the Word, but love is the filter that all of the Word must be seen through, to know God, which is salvation, to know the Father and the Son. When we know the Father is love and we are not capable of loving until we receive His love, He loved us first, then we must wonder what love is since there are so many that say they love God but yet hate their brother, and some even to death, ready to kill each other for the things of this temporary world, as in; everyone that says he loves God and hates his brother is a liar, is this how we are to perceive God. If it doesn’t make any sense, if our understanding contradicts the Word of God, we need to look further in to the Word, seeking more understanding from Christ and less of ourselves. Many doctrines, as I said before have hidden the Truth, but the simple revelation is to understand that the flesh bodies we reside in are temporary and were made corruption from the beginning, made to parish, it’s part of His plan, the flesh is the object of anger of the Lord, He created the flesh to receive His wrath, that the souls of men might be saved in His day, as understood in Paul’s writings; the man being given to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the soul might be saved in the day of the Lord. Think on it, Prove all things is the commandment, there is so much more to be seen and gained through the loss of the flesh, no flesh enters the kingdom.
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the fire of coals, and bringeth forth a weapon for his work; and I HAVE CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY.
Who is the waster, the destroyer?
1Co 5:5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for The Destruction Of The Flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Dear Bob,
You have posted some very pertinent Scripture.
Many, if not all, of these passages I have enjoyed careful study of in the past, some very recent past.
Even here on this site I carefully presented the meaning of 2 Corinthians 3:6.
In context, the “letter” is a reference to the Ten Commandment Law.
Scripture presents two means to receive eternal life. One is given in Leviticus 18:5,
The other is given in Genesis 15:6,
It is spelled out again in Habakkuk 2:4,
Back to 2 Corinthians 3:6, the reference to “spirit” has to do with the enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, who enables us to understand Scripture upon our proper diligence in doing careful study, and as we feed on God’s Word, produces the fruit of the Spirit in our life.
I enjoyed your comment and the good Scripture passages you have brought forward.
Thanks again for your response. In your posting you speak of 2 Corinthians 3:6 as referring to the Ten Commandments, I agree and will add also the law of Moses being derived of the Ten Commandments. Although I do agree to this, I need to relate a few more scriptures that will add further understanding to what you have said. First to state, that through Christ only can any enter the kingdom, there is not another way, and that can be seen in the progressive revelation of the Word. We know Christ said He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill and also that not one jot or tiddle could pass from the law, by that statement we understand that the written law was lacking and in need of completion. These statements also require further understanding to come in to perspective.
In Leviticus God is speaking of the physical promised land, which they did not enter into because of unbelief, not believing that God would deliver them against the nations they were to do battle with. The physical law is not able to save anyone, the law that saves is the law of the spirit, which the physical law was a shadow of, the light or spirit of it not having been revealed before Christ, as Christ said; I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world, the reason Moses saw only His back side in the mount typifies the letter, the Truth being hidden.
Exo 33:22 and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand until I have passed by: 23 and I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my back; but my face shall not be seen.
Referring to Genesis 15:6, Abraham was brought in to the physical promised land, he has not yet received the spiritual promise, as none have, “no one has ascended in to heaven except He that came out of heaven”, looking at Hebrews 11 we can see that none of the Old Testament patriarchs received the spiritual promise, not yet.
Rom 4:13 For NOT THROUGH THE LAW WAS THE PROMISE TO ABRAHAM or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
Heb 11:13 THESE ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (This passage speaks of Old Testament patriarchs.)
As to Habakkuk 2, a little study will reveal, this is speaking of the last days, after Christ’s resurrection. The confusion is in the realization that the Old Testament did occur to the people of physical Israel who were examples to us upon who the ends of the ages have come, shadows of better things to come, spiritual things, it was not possible for anyone to receive any spiritual promises until Christ was crucified and resurrected, He is the only acceptable sacrifice selected by The Father before the foundation of the world. No man could receive life until all sin had been paid for, Christ died once for all, the whole world. The promise given to Abraham is to his seed, Christ, all must be in Christ to receive the promise, “who only has life”, “sit though on My right hand until I put thine enemies under thy feet” this is spiritual, the feet are the lowest members of the body of Christ, “John the Baptist is the greatest to ever be born of the womb (flesh), but he that is least (feet) in the kingdom is greater than he (John) (spiritual)” Christ is the head, we are the body, many members, “who ever desires to be greatest among you shall be the servant”.
Gal 2:21 I do not make void the grace of God: FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH THE LAW, then Christ died for nought.
Gal 3:11 Now that NO MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:21 IS THE LAW THEN AGAINST THE PROMISES OF GOD? GOD FORBID: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 BUT BEFORE FAITH CAME, we were kept in ward under the law, SHUT UP UNTO THE FAITH WHICH SHOULD AFTERWARDS BE REVEALED. 24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
1Pe 1:10 Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of THE GRACE THAT SHOULD COME UNTO YOU: 11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories THAT SHOULD FOLLOW THEM. 12 To whom it was revealed, that NOT UNTO THEMSELVES, BUT UNTO YOU, DID THEY MINISTER THESE THINGS, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven; which things angel desire to look into.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD HATH BEEN MANIFESTED, being WITNESSED BY THE LAW and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS:
Rom 9:31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Wherefore? BECAUSE THEY SOUGHT IT NOT BY FAITH, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; 33 even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 7:12 So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good. 13 Did then that which is good become death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; – that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Joh 6:31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat. 32 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you THE TRUE BREAD out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and GIVETH LIFE UNTO THE WORLD.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but BY EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
The manna was physical bread for the flesh in the wilderness, Christ is the spiritual bread, The True Bread, The Word made flesh, knowing the flesh profits nothing.
Joh 1:14 And the WORD BECAME FLESH, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH. 15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me. 16 For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; GRACE AND TRUTH came through Jesus Christ.
Through a diligent study of these verses listed and many more not listed I think it becomes clear the revelation is progressive, Christ revealing the path, hidden in the Old Testament, brought forth in the New Testament in the Spirit, written in parables, symbols and metaphors revealed through diligently searching for Truth/Christ, resting at His feet.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU ARE SPIRIT, AND ARE LIFE.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.
Joh 4:24 GOD IS A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
I know it does not equate with the flesh, but the Word is Spirit, the Spirit of God, sent forth from God, this is where belief comes in, knowing He will complete the work He has begun in us, writing His Word in our heart and mind, renewing the mind, a new Spirit, the Spirit without measure as Christ is the first born of many brethren, FULL of grace and Truth.
Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.
These are not defiled with women (man’s wisdom) and no lie is in their mouth (full of grace and Truth).
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it; 26 that he might sanctify it, having CLEANSED IT BY THE WASHING OF WATER WITH THE WORD, 27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Joh 7:38 He that BELIEVETH ON ME, AS THE SCRIPTURE HATH SAID, from within him shall flow rivers of living water.
Hope this clarifies the path a little more, there are many verses that can lead us as we search the Truth and it is easy to get off track if we don’t realize the Spirit in the Word, as the law of commandments as a shadow leads us to The Spirit of Truth, Christ.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.
After reading Steven James’ special to CNN called ‘My take; stop sugar-coating the Bible’ I felt compelled to be a voice for Abraham, Job, Elijah, Naomi, Hannah and Christ who Mr. James persecuted through his little commentary.
Mr. James’ first comment instantly brought to mind Genesis 6:6. And it repented the Lord that he made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, for it repenteth me that I have made them. Now, that is much different from Mr. James’ take which is, God would rather die than spend eternity without a needy and screwed up people. Mr. James’ take that the Bible is a gritty book, very raw, very real differs from mine, which is, the Word of God is the destroyer and healer of all things. My take of the Bible edifies God’s Word which testifies His Word is a double-edged sword. Mr. James take of the Bible does not edify God who is a Spirit; his obnoxious comments crucifies God’s Spirit which makes him a partaker of what the church does through their religious rituals and carnal theologies of a Book written by the Spirit of God through righteous men who suffered horrendous trials and tribulations in search of understanding in God’s call, which was, seeking God for understanding in God’s Word they saw written upon their heart. The destruction brought upon their natural lives in search of understanding in God’s Word was the sacrifice they made unto God having seen through their own experiences in life that it is through God’s Spirit manifested in the truth of His Word that man enters into a relationship with their Creator. In lieu of their obedience unto God’s call they received God’s Spirit who is the Breath of Life God’s Word testifies He breathed into man. Their sacrifices unto God also bore witness of His Son who sacrificed His Life for man to receive God’s Spirit; Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for is I go not away, The Comforter (Holy Spirit) will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you, John 16:7. The point of this paragraph is this; people need to hear God’s Spirit not the voices of those who obviously have no knowledge in God, in His Son or in His Kingdom.
At the bottom of Mr. James’ blog there is a requirement that all responses to his blog stay within the margin of his commentary. Posting a comment on a blog that restricts me from adequately addressing the errors and misconceptions I see in Mr. James’ take on the Bible leaves me in an uncomfortable place. I don’t like coming off as being critical. That is certainly not my intent; my prosperity is in God whose truths lift a man up through destroying false misrepresentations of His Word that separates man from God. Moving on…
I find it quite appalling that Mr. James called Noah a drunk. That derogatory statement is a direct contradiction of the scriptures that testify Noah was a righteous man who walked before God. In fact, they testify he was the only just man on the face of the earth in the day God said ‘I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth’. Mr. James assumption that the vineyard Noah planted was one of grapes is no different than that of the churches who he accuses of being delinquent in their theologies. What’s the difference between his commentary and their theology? None that I can see! How often did Christ refer to the Kingdom of God as a vineyard? What saith the scriptures, the window of Heaven was opened unto Noah. Noah was lifted up from the earth by God’s Spirit through whom he received knowledge in God which is the wealth of God’s Kingdom that Christ taught man to seek thereafter. If both Mr. James and the church were lifted up by God’s Spirit in their understanding of God’s Word they would have a much different understanding of the covering the scriptures testify Noah removed from the ark. The errors and misrepresentations of God’s Word brought forth by those who are not led by God’s Spirit prevent man from entering into the Covenant God made with Noah and the patriarch’s. The flood of knowledge God brought forth through Noah delivered man from the wickedness that had risen up in the earth in Noah’s day through the sins committed against God by the religious theologies taught by the sons of God in Noah’s day. That wickedness has risen up again in the earth, and the scriptures testify such would be in the earth when Christ returned. This wickedness is exposed on my web-site http://www.theresurrection.ca for the purpose of opening man’s understanding in the truth of God’s Word through which God’s Spirit is heard. You can respond to my comments of Mr. James blog or anything written on my web-site is you wish info@theresurrection.ca
On numerous occasions I have heard pastors preach that Abraham deceived Pharaoh and Abimelech. What’s the difference between deception and a liar?
The KJV testifies that Abraham asked Sarah who was his wife and his sister to say she was his sister when they entered Gerar because he thought the fear of God was not in the land. His survival instinct caused him to ask his wife to truthfully state she was his sister. Obviously his instinct was correct for the scriptures testify Abimelech would have taken Sarah to be his wife had God not given him a vision that she was Abraham’s wife. After God spoke to Abimelech in a vision, the scriptures testify he was sore afraid; Abraham did not see that fear of God when he entered the land. Point here is this; God led Abraham into a situation that caused him to fear for his life for the purpose of making His Presence known unto Abimelech. God causes Abraham to fear for his life so He could reveal himself unto Abimelech and Abraham is called a liar and deceiver for his obedience unto God in the face of a situation that caused him to fear for his life. Abraham did not lie, nor did he deceive Pharaoh or Abimelech; Sarah was his sister as well as his wife. His obedience unto God opened the door for God to speak unto Abimelech who obviously believed in God or the scriptures wouldn’t testify the fear of God came upon him after God spoke unto him through a vision. What saith the scriptures; the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
Now concerning Mr. James’ take on Job’s lusts for young girls. Job 31:1 testifies Job made a covenant with his eyes and then the scripture testifies he had no desire for a maid. Henceforth the covenant he made with his eyes speaks to what he saw in his heart being his desire to know God, which is clearly seen throughout the entire book he wrote. He made daily supplications for his sons in case they sinned against God; why therefore would he even contemplate entering into sin or such a state? I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid, Job 31:1.
I take great offence, as should we all to Mr. James’ take on Jesus being a gluttonous, drunken party man. To hear Matthew 11:19 one must hear Matthew 11:18: For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. Since the body requires natural food to survive that was not the nourishment John 11:18 is referring to. John did not partake of the religious philosophies of his day; his teachings bore witness of Christ. John 11:19 the scripture referred to by Mr. James testifies Jesus came eating and drinking (feasting on the law he came to fulfill). His knowledge of the law was so over their head they deemed him as a glutton and a winebibber. John prepared the way for Christ who bore on the Cross the sins of carnal doctrine and carnal priests, and Mr. James take is simply that of the other side of the elephant. In view of the fact that he is an acclaimed story teller it’s unfortunate he took the Holy Word of God to mock the sacrifice Christ made on the Cross to deliver man from the sin and bondage caused by the foolishness of preaching.
I would like to ask Mr. James if he ever suffered the grievous vacuum of either a loss or lack of a child in his life. And what he would feel, and if he would petition God as did these ladies? Both Naomi and Hannah carried a heavy burden; they were both to be recipients of a child God required for the furtherance of His Kingdom. Naomi’s daughter-in-law brought forth the linage of Christ, and Hannah’s son Samuel raised in the Temple eventually became priest and judge over Israel anointing Saul and David who was of the linage of Christ.
Concerning Mr. James’ assumption that Elijah dealt with depression, I beg to differ! There is a difference between brokenness and depression. Like Abraham, Elijah also faced death, several times. When a man faces challenges that tear at the very core of his being, and then is delivered by God out of those trials he’s left with an understanding in God that gives him the strength and wisdom to overcome and see the providence of God, which is the foundation of his faith. They are like elastics ever being stretched to bring the knowledge of God through which God delivers man from the heavy burdens caused by religious theologies that do not exalt God, His Son and His Kingdom. All God’s servants suffered persecution and brokenness; persecution because their knowledge of God separated them from the religious practices in their day, and brokenness because they saw the truth of God was less desirable to man than the rituals performed by the leaders of the church.
When I read Mr. James’ comment about the Gentiles pissing against the wall I was immediately reminded of the Toronto Blessing. Now I don’t know if you have read the book called the Toronto Blessing or if you are familiar with the ‘Rival’ that took place eighteen years ago upon which the book was written. During that ‘Rival’ a prophecy came forth calling all the men in the congregation to piss against the wall. After they performed this mock ritual another prophecy came forth stating they were all jackasses. Here, God expressed what He saw in that church. A couple weeks later His Spirit rested upon the church I attended. The Crucifixion I witnessed of God’s Spirit through the Pastor calling the Spirit evil in this uncommon spiritual experience opened my eyes to the Crucifixion Isaiah saw in his day and ultimately at Calvary.
My take of the Bible is this; when the churches and people like Mr. James stop Crucifying Christ through killing God’s Spirit (who man receives through Christ) through their carnal theologies of God’s Word maybe the voices of those who wrote God’s Word can be heard.
We are living in perilous times; Christ is the way, the truth and the light we need in this time of darkness. A fervent prayer of mine is that the truth of God would take root in the lives of His people, Amen.
Dear Ariel,
Thank you for visiting my site and posting a response!
You can see I welcome comments here, and I don’t put any restriction on length!
We are indeed living in perilous times. So often I notice that when those who oppose the truth of the Bible are answered, they do not recognize when the answer totally refutes their mistaken position.
We don’t need man-made theologies. We have the privilege in this day to study directly from the Bible for ourselves to learn its truth.
One of my most frequent and much appreciated posters here charged me with being a dispensationalist but then concluded his brief comment stating he couldn’t figure out which of several dispensational viewpoints I follow. Well, anyone who properly sees a difference between the Church in the New Testament as founded by Christ and the nation of Israel is a dispensationalist. But so was Paul. So I don’t think that leaves me in bad company at all!
Dear Jerry,
It’s Christen again, Martin’s friend. I really enjoyed this blog, and even the dialogue a few comments up. I have a question concerning hell, and I have been working on answering it for about a week now. If you don’t mind, I’d like to pick your brain a little.
Dear Christen,
Good to hear from you again!
Please feel free to “pick my brain” as much as you like!
I look forward to reading your question about hell.
This question actually began with someone suggesting Satan and Lucifer to be seperate beings. The support for this argument is found in John chapter 8 verse 44
Since Satan was a murder from the beginning, then he could not be Lucifer, is what the argument states. Isaiah 54:16, I’m told, refers specifically to Satan–a waster whom God created for the purpose of destroying. And moreover, Revelation chapter 12, which refers to Satan as still an heavenly being who is right now accusing the brethern, and who will eventually be cast out of Heaven, but not someone who is currently in Hell. Is this true, partly true or totally false?
Your response will, in a sense, determine my questions concerning Hell, the Lake of fire–which seems to be seperate–and eternal punishment: Revelation 20:14 speaks about Death and Hell being cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second Death: I’m really not trying to equivocate, but these terms and concepts are so closely related. I understand physical and spiritual death as an experience or distiniction–I’ve even learned the greek words for them–but what is this Death that will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Death will experience second death and eternal punishment?
Dear Christen,
You raise some very interesting questions.
I am only as far as Luke 7:21 at this moment in my research project to expand the number of cross references for Bible study. So any comments I make pertaining to verses beyond that point are provisional.
Nevertheless, “from the beginning” may be a reference to the activity of Satan recorded in Genesis 3. The question would involve determining which “beginning” Jesus has reference to. The fact that Satan lied to Eve would seem to indicate that the “beginning” Jesus points to is the fall of man in the garden of Eden.
In context, Isaiah 14:12 appears in Isaiah’s prediction of the fall of Babylon. The king of Babylon is metaphorically compared to Lucifer, a name which means day star or morning star.
The future fall of the king of Babylon is compared to the past fall of Lucifer, one of the names or titles given to Satan in Scripture. Just when this fall of Satan took place is not directly recorded in Scripture that I know of. It could have taken place before the six days of creation described in Genesis 1.
If you compare the cross references given in the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge (about 8 references), or The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge (about 9 references), or Nelson’s Cross Reference Guide to the Bible (also about 9 references), you can see that in the manuscript for my new project to expand cross references available for Bible study as given for Isaiah 54:16 above, there are now about 20 references.
For the waster I have given the following new references:
The “waster,” therefore, is the human instrument in warfare that God has appointed to accomplish His intended destruction. For example, God sometimes used heathen kings to wreak destruction upon the nation Israel because of their disobedience, particularly their idolatry.
Therefore, I suggest that in Isaiah 54:16 the “waster” does not refer to Satan, but to the heathen king or kings God employs to punish the nation of Israel. It looks like I should add the reference to Isaiah +*10:5 to Isaiah 54:16, thanks to your good question.
If you consider the context of Isaiah 54:16 you will see that God is promising the preservation of His people and nation Israel. See Isaiah 54:9, 10 in conjunction with Isaiah 55:3, and Isaiah 54:17,
More to come, but feel free to make further comments. I will try to give you more answers later.
Jerry,
Thanks for the response, and it actually clears a lot of things up; however, I still have one thing that needs clarifying–it’s actually my biggest concern. But I will wait until your next response; I just want to make sure my question is based on any misconceptions regarding Hell and the Lake of Fire. Primarily, I’m led to believe that hell is a holding place until the day of Judgment, for those who aren’t in Christ. Which will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Thank you for the new foundation to build on. Your book, by the way, is very helpful. I’m actually trying to get my hands on the blue one–the much bigger one. Are there any stores that still carry it? I was told that it’s no longer sold in stores.
Dear Chris,
The New Treasury is now available only second-hand in book form, and from what I see on Amazon, it sometimes commands a quite high price. It went out of print without my knowing it, so even as the author I never had a chance to stock up extra copies! But it is available in software in the Logos 4 software package, and also from Nelson in the eBible software, which is often very reasonably priced.
Dear Jerry,
I’m on my way home from school this evening around 6:30, and I’m listening to the radio. I catch the back end of a conversation between a guy talking about the Sabbath day, and he knows all sorts of references off hand that supports his argument. I soon learned that he uses your book! The one Martin introduced to me. Well, and then, I soon learned that it was you, I think! I Pastor Emery Moss only said Mr. Smith, but it clinked once he began to talk about this website. But okay, sorry to keep being a bother, I just wanted to share that with you.
Dear Christen,
I’m glad you heard even a snatch of the program!
You can tell from my responses at this site that for some people the issue of the Sabbath is a big issue. Too big, because if they properly considered the balance of teaching in the Bible, it would for Christians be a non-issue.
Yes, that was me on the program. I hope I answered Pastor Moss’s questions adequately and clearly. I never know exactly what he might ask, so I have to keep on my toes. But I thank the Lord for the ministry Pastor Moss has, reaching many in the Detroit area with the Gospel, and the message of what the Bible really says.
I hope to return to your questions tomorrow.
Dear Christen,
Part of your question I did not get a chance to answer before. Someone always forgets to pull the plug out of the clock and I run out of time!
You asked:
The reference to “Death” and “Hell” in Revelation 20:14 is to all who have died: those on land who were properly buried, and those who died at sea who were not, from what I learned in my studies in the past. But remember I’m only as far as Luke 7, currently, which I just completed this evening, so I may learn more about such passages when I get to them in the process of expanding the cross references for Bible study.
You probably are aware that no one is in gehenna at this time. Neither are any people in the Lake of Fire just yet. When we die, if we are saved, we go immediately to be with Christ in heaven. If we are unsaved, we go immediately to Hades, to await the final Great White Throne judgment. All who appear to be judged at the Great White Throne are lost. No saved persons will be judged there. All the guilty will be cast into the Lake of Fire where they will suffer unending, eternal punishment. The degree of suffering there apparently will differ according to the degree of guilt (see Luke 12:48 and its cross references). From my examination just now of all the NT occurrences of the words rendered “hell” in the KJV, it appears that “hades” is the temporary abode of the unsaved upon their death; “gehenna” is the permanent abode of the unsaved after the Great White Throne Judgement. The Lake of Fire is a more descriptive term for hell as we normally would conceive it in Scripture, and is the same as “gehenna,” described as the Lake of Fire, where all unsaved will suffer eternally.
Dear Jerry,
I totally agree with your most recent post. Now, here, however, is where I ran into trouble:
As I’ve drawn the distinction between gehenna and hades, I noticed something very interesting that I don’t quite understand. Is Hades merely the temporary abode of the unsaved?
Jesus said to Peter in Matthew 16 “. . .and the gates of ‘hades’ shall not prevail against it.”
Does this suggest that it’s also a kingdom? Who built it–God, as a temporary abode for the unsaved, or Satan, as a kingdom that’s also being used as a temporary abode for the unsaved? What is it’s main purpose, and who ordained it? Is it the Kingdom Jesus mentioned in Matthew 12 when he said, “If Satan cast out Satan, how then shall his Kingdom stand,” or is it the temporary holding place for the unsaved, or both?
I guess my question is, since it’s known that God did create Hell, and Hell is Satan’s Kingdom, Did God create Satan’s Kingdom, or did Satan?
There is a verse in Matthew that says that God is not the God of the Dead, but the living, and, in Hebrews, that Satan has the power of Death, and, of course, that Jesus destroyed him that has power over Death– Again, I don’t want to equivocate, are these terms speaking about the dead in Hades?
If so, then, if God created Hades, and Hades is Satan’s kingdom, are the dead-unsaved given to Satan? If so, then, since Jesus destroyed him that have the power over death, does this mean that the dead-unsaved are given to Jesus?
Sorry if my question is confusing. I’m actually confused myself.
Dear Christen,
Hades is the temporary abode of the unsaved dead now. Before the resurrection of Christ it was the abode of the righteous also, in a separate “compartment,” called “Abraham’s Bosom,” as expressed in the account given in Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus.
The “Gates of hell” or Hades would seem to be an expression regarding the government of Hades because of the term “gates” in that expression. This is a figure of speech identified and further explained at Genesis 14:7 in the New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. Satan has a kingdom, just as he claimed during the temptation of Christ, and the authority to give it to whomever he wills, or so he claimed. That kingdom is now on this earth, where he walks about, “seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8). He manifests himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), and his ministers are “transformed as “the ministers of righteousness” (2 Corinthians 11:15), deceitful propagators of false doctrine, promoting heresies that serve to test the genuineness of our faith (1 Corinthians 11:19). There are powers of darkness, and principalities, and rulers of the darkness–all implying a highly organized system of evil, as mentioned in Ephesians 6:12.
Since only God can create, I don’t think that Satan created Hades.
When Christ destroyed the power of death, death has reference to physical death, since by resurrection in his physical body, the same body that was crucified, demonstrated that physical death has been overcome by physical bodily resurrection, something all will experience in due time, both the righteous and the unrighteous (John 5:28, 29).
The dead in Hades are of course conscious spirits (or souls). Their bodies are awaiting physical resurrection. This proves conscious existence after death, for they suffer torment.
Those who espouse the materialist system of theology (like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists) deny conscious existence after death. But the passage you allude to in Matthew, which appears also in Luke with the added phrase “for all live unto him,” shows that all who die physically remain conscious. Christ’s argument against the Sadducees settles the matter once and for all when He asserted “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” He thus proved the doctrine of the resurrection, and also the doctrine of continued conscious existence, on the basis of the Abrahamic Covenant, clearly referenced as His proof by the reference to the “God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” a covenant as yet unfulfilled personally to Abraham (Acts 7:5), which therefore requires Abraham’s resurrection and life in the Kingdom of God (Matthew 8:11) here on this earth forever (NOT just the 1000 years: Christ reigns forever, Luke 1:32, 33) to receive the promises God gave to him. In the account in Mark 12, Christ severely criticized the Sadducees for not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God, stating that they greatly erred.
The dead in Hades have not been given to Satan. Satan apparently is not there. They will be joined in their final destiny in the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment.
Dear Jerry,
You’ve certainly cleared things up for you. That actually makes a lot of sit, and I do not feel as though I’m forcing pieces together. Thank you, a lot.
I want to ask one more question about something you’ve mentioned, though. Just to clarify. Those who are unsaved and dead and are in Hades, they’re there in the Spirit and will be raised at the last day physically, and then get a new body?
Same with the saved and dead and are with Christ–they’re in the Spirit and will be raised at the last day physically, and then get a new body? Because I’ve always mixed this one up, as I’ve tried to reconciled the two verses: Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, but when Christ returns, the dead in Christ will arise first.
I gave my life to Christ almost three years ago, I’m twenty now, and I’m really seeking to grow more in the Lord. This conversation and this website clears so much up for me.
I’m sorry. This computer has corrective text on, and sometimes it adds words in for me. The first line should say, “You’ve certainly cleared things up for ‘me’. That actually makes a lot of ‘sense’, and I do not feel as though I’m forcing pieces together. Thank you, a lot.
I’m sorry for the error.
Dear Christen,
The text in John 5:28, 29 makes it clear for me:
Since only bodies can be resurrected, not souls or spirits, both the saved and unsaved will experience a bodily resurrection. But the unsaved will enter into judgment at the Great White Throne.
The two resurrections do not take place at the same time. The saved are resurrected at the Rapture. The unsaved are resurrected at the end of the Millennium.
Jerry,
I’m sorry it has taken me so long to respond, but I have been very ill. You latest post makes sense to me, though. I can’t help but to have more questions now. I won’t bother you with them, though. But could you give me some direction? If I wanted to study the resurrection of the saints more and the nature of Satan’s power over death, where should I direct me attention?
Dear Christen,
I trust you are feeling better by now. You’ll have to follow my advice to my students (who always asked me, “Mr. Smith, are you ever going to be absent?”). I said I have almost never been absent. They could see that! I said, the secret is that to stay healthy you must eat right, get enough rest, drink enough water (not pop!), and keep your hands washed, and get enough exercise–generally walking and climbing stairs will do nicely.
The resurrection of the saints is taught in 1 Corinthians 15. It is also taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It is also spoken of by our Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 14:14, and again in John 14:1-3, and especially John 5:25-29 and John 11:25, 26.
From these passages it is very clear that there are two resurrections in particular, the resurrection of the righteous “dead in Christ” (1 Corinthians 15:22) at the Rapture of the Church, as taught by Paul (following what Jesus said in John 11:25, 26) in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The other resurrection takes place long after the Rapture, after the 1000 year Millennium (Revelation 20:5) and involves those who are unsaved, “the resurrection of damnation” mentioned by Jesus in John 5:29.
Satan’s power over death is perhaps connected with the fact that the wages of sin is death. His power has been broken because he was unsuccessful in preventing the resurrection of Christ. The FACT that Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead after three days, exactly as He predicted, and in accordance with the Scripture, proves that Satan has already in principle been defeated. His days are numbered, and I’m sure he knows where he will end up, though he would like to do as much damage to the people on earth as he can before he is finally cast into the Lake of Fire, where he will be tormented forever.
Dear Jerry,
I will certainly take your advice. I do not ever want to feel like this again. Thank you for your time. This is definitely an encouragement to me.
Christen,
I have posted a link here to a study that reveals the key and base for Truth in all knowledge, Christ in you, everyone’s hope. Take caution when seeking understanding, there are as many opinions as there are those that speak, according to the encyclopedia on religion, over 30,000 denominations of Christian religion. The only True doctrine is from Christ and is not divided. If you desire Truth, you must go to Christ, separate from the teachings of the world.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/76872405/Second-Coming
Joh 6:27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for THE FOOD which abideth unto eternal life, WHICH THE SON OF MAN SHALL GIVE UNTO YOU: for him THE FATHER, EVEN GOD, HATH SEALED.
Dear Bob,
Nice to see you post here again.
I visited the site you provided a link for, and found the following concluding paragraph on its page 7 (I have broken the paragraph into segments to make it easier to read on computer screens):
Of course, the Bible teaches no such thing. Those who have the misfortune to be consigned to the Lake of Fire will remain there in their permanently lost condition.
The True gospel will not be preached in the Lake of Fire.
There is no “second chance.” It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. The Bible warns us, “How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?”
Most certainly, “Christ’s coming” is not “in us.” That is a view unsupported by Scripture. Christ’s Second Coming will be a personal coming. Our Lord Jesus Christ taught that he would come back in the same manner that he left, which is a literal and visible coming in the same physical but now glorified resurrected body he possessed while here on this earth during the First Coming.
Careful study of Scripture will demonstrate that the Second Coming takes place in two stages, the first stage will be the coming FOR His saints, the second stage a number of years later will be His coming WITH His saints. By “saints” I have reference to genuinely saved, born again believers in Christ.
Hey Jerry,
As I have said there are many doctrines amongst the religious, only Christ has the Truth. In the sum of His Word the Truth is understood as He teaches line upon line. You may be settled on what you will believe and even come up with excuses for the scripture you ignore and do not understand, but that will not change the Truth, only the Truth reveals Christ. I know your set in what you’ve been taught as so many are, but you should know that it is the goodness of God that brings us to repentance, repentance being the renewing of our mind, He will have mercy on whom He will, and His will is that all come to the knowledge of the Truth, all things come to all in His timing, none are able to resist the will of God. Praise Him, as He reveals to you your love for Truth will grow and His plan will begin to unfold, you too will praise Him in Spirit and Truth. If you desire, look in to the words translated eternal in the scriptures, an honest study will reveal much and you may see there is more to be gathered in to the sum, but you must be willing to give all that you have for Christ. It is not easy to be humbled in our minds, but every knee will bow and tongue confess the Truth, it is written, it can not be changed. Think before you respond, there is much to be learned, it all fits when you have been given, as the Lord has said: those that have, will be given more, those that have not, even it shall be taken away. The Truth is the focus and must always be the focus of our study and speech, everything else will be lost in the fire, taken away, but yet every one will be save by fire. God Bless.